China helping Iran to upgrade F-4 Phantoms

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

rhino123 said:

Might be tough... but not entirely impossible... that is the beauty of modulars systems.

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Problem being most of the kit Iran is operating was designed and built during a time when even the idea of modular systems did not yet exist.

If the Chinese are helping Iran upgrade their fighters, both sides are better off if they just stripped out all the existing avionics and put in a brand new modern Chinese suit in. The problem with such a move would be cost, and but the fact that all existing weapons would either need to be reintegrated onto the Chinese system, or brand new munitions would need to be purchased.

Since Iran is under an embargo, China is unlikely to provide new modern munitions, and that would greatly diminish the value and usefulness of an upgrade program. On top of that, Iran is under constant threat of US attack, and is no doubt subject to intense surveillance and scrutiny as can be seen with the capture of US drones in Iranian territory earlier this year.

Not only would the US administration be jumping up and down and telling everyone about China's involvement in upgrading Iranian fighters if it was true, there is also a good chance that American intelligence would be able to gather real, useful data on Chinese avionics if they were sold to Iran. That was the main reason an Iranian J8II deal never happened. The Chinese were more than happy to supply the Iranians with J8IIs with Russian Zhuk radars, but the Iranians wanted the exact same sets as what the PLAAF used, and there was simply no way the PLAAF was going to allow that. And of that was in the 90s before Iran's nuclear weapons program and the threat of American military action.

All of this makes me doubt this story even more.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

plawolf said:

Problem being most of the kit Iran is operating was designed and built during a time when even the idea of modular systems did not yet exist.

If the Chinese are helping Iran upgrade their fighters, both sides are better off if they just stripped out all the existing avionics and put in a brand new modern Chinese suit in. The problem with such a move would be cost, and but the fact that all existing weapons would either need to be reintegrated onto the Chinese system, or brand new munitions would need to be purchased.

Since Iran is under an embargo, China is unlikely to provide new modern munitions, and that would greatly diminish the value and usefulness of an upgrade program. On top of that, Iran is under constant threat of US attack, and is no doubt subject to intense surveillance and scrutiny as can be seen with the capture of US drones in Iranian territory earlier this year.

Not only would the US administration be jumping up and down and telling everyone about China's involvement in upgrading Iranian fighters if it was true, there is also a good chance that American intelligence would be able to gather real, useful data on Chinese avionics if they were sold to Iran. That was the main reason an Iranian J8II deal never happened. The Chinese were more than happy to supply the Iranians with J8IIs with Russian Zhuk radars, but the Iranians wanted the exact same sets as what the PLAAF used, and there was simply no way the PLAAF was going to allow that. And of that was in the 90s before Iran's nuclear weapons program and the threat of American military action.

All of this makes me doubt this story even more.

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Agreed 100%. That is why I almost always treat all this rumors with not just a grain of salt but an entire jug of salt. I don't believe whatever these so-call experts said unless it was offically announced or acknowledged by both sides.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

I have not been able to understand why Iran didn't capitalise on buying Chinese fighter-jets. Had Iran given it serious though, they could have easily ordered some of the most modern aircraft that China produces. Iran's oil wealth would have meant that China would have found a large oil producing country to buy oil from. Iran certainly has the resource wealth to have procured Chinese J-10s, JH-7s and J-11s in bulk numbers. That could have dramatically increased the size of China's Military Sales and put it on the map, with CAC, SAC, Norinco and others, come head to head against major military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing!

I feel Iran has squandered opportunities in good allies like China and Russia, to buy and establish a large military force that would have enough deterring power to thwart any major assault from any foreign country. Iran could've had a superb navy had it looked to China and a powerful airforce had it taken on what Russia had to offer!

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

Dizasta1 said:

I have not been able to understand why Iran didn't capitalise on buying Chinese fighter-jets. Had Iran given it serious though, they could have easily ordered some of the most modern aircraft that China produces. Iran's oil wealth would have meant that China would have found a large oil producing country to buy oil from. Iran certainly has the resource wealth to have procured Chinese J-10s, JH-7s and J-11s in bulk numbers. That could have dramatically increased the size of China's Military Sales and put it on the map, with CAC, SAC, Norinco and others, come head to head against major military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing!

I feel Iran has squandered opportunities in good allies like China and Russia, to buy and establish a large military force that would have enough deterring power to thwart any major assault from any foreign country. Iran could've had a superb navy had it looked to China and a powerful airforce had it taken on what Russia had to offer!

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Think they wanted to take the self reliance route on military hardware.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

Dizasta1 said:

I have not been able to understand why Iran didn't capitalise on buying Chinese fighter-jets. Had Iran given it serious though, they could have easily ordered some of the most modern aircraft that China produces. Iran's oil wealth would have meant that China would have found a large oil producing country to buy oil from. Iran certainly has the resource wealth to have procured Chinese J-10s, JH-7s and J-11s in bulk numbers. That could have dramatically increased the size of China's Military Sales and put it on the map, with CAC, SAC, Norinco and others, come head to head against major military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing!

I feel Iran has squandered opportunities in good allies like China and Russia, to buy and establish a large military force that would have enough deterring power to thwart any major assault from any foreign country. Iran could've had a superb navy had it looked to China and a powerful airforce had it taken on what Russia had to offer!

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iran still has embargo, its one thing to upgrade some out of date plane, its much different when china start arm iran with 4th gen fighter in bulk volume. china still want a good relation with west/israel, selling those weapon will hurt that relation definaly not worth it. china limited its purchase of iran oil due to west pressure, selling advance weapon will just make things worst.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

Dizasta1 said:

I have not been able to understand why Iran didn't capitalise on buying Chinese fighter-jets. Had Iran given it serious though, they could have easily ordered some of the most modern aircraft that China produces. Iran's oil wealth would have meant that China would have found a large oil producing country to buy oil from. Iran certainly has the resource wealth to have procured Chinese J-10s, JH-7s and J-11s in bulk numbers. That could have dramatically increased the size of China's Military Sales and put it on the map, with CAC, SAC, Norinco and others, come head to head against major military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing!

I feel Iran has squandered opportunities in good allies like China and Russia, to buy and establish a large military force that would have enough deterring power to thwart any major assault from any foreign country. Iran could've had a superb navy had it looked to China and a powerful airforce had it taken on what Russia had to offer!

Click to expand...

They can do it and they have the resources to do it too but that's not the Iranian strategy, militray procurement follows stratedgy and Iran can build up as much as they want but they are always still going to losse the war because on this occasion the opponent is the USN

If they want deterrence then they can do it other ways without spending billions they can do it using proxys, which they have throughout the middle east, it's the Similar to Pakistan Navy vs the Indian Navy, because lets be honest PN can buy two Type 052D DDG but in the end they will still losse the war because simply put one can't match ton for ton in warship numbers that would be $2 billion right down the drain

The point is we are not fighting conventional weapons with conventional weapons, so we have to go unconventional and the same is true for Iran

They seen Iraq get obliterated in 1991 and his military was huge, no point in even going there, Iran can have 50 Su-30 all will be wiped clean the end result no matter what they have will lead to the same result

Instead they have invested in home built small crafts with anti-ship missiles in large numbers to break and disperse USN fire

The air force has everything to gain and nothing to losse, same as Imperial Japan, make them pay a price for every inch so high it deters them from attacking in the first place

Iran is doing just fine all they want is the bomb!

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

Dizasta1 said:

I have not been able to understand why Iran didn't capitalise on buying Chinese fighter-jets. Had Iran given it serious though, they could have easily ordered some of the most modern aircraft that China produces. Iran's oil wealth would have meant that China would have found a large oil producing country to buy oil from. Iran certainly has the resource wealth to have procured Chinese J-10s, JH-7s and J-11s in bulk numbers. That could have dramatically increased the size of China's Military Sales and put it on the map, with CAC, SAC, Norinco and others, come head to head against major military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Boeing!

I feel Iran has squandered opportunities in good allies like China and Russia, to buy and establish a large military force that would have enough deterring power to thwart any major assault from any foreign country. Iran could've had a superb navy had it looked to China and a powerful airforce had it taken on what Russia had to offer!

Click to expand...

First , there is UN mandated arms embargo :


Second , China could not sell J-10s or J-11s without Russia supplying engines .

Third , Iran would need at least 500 modern airplanes with weapons , top notch trained pilots and good SAM coverage to deter US & Israel . Obviously , they could not afford that - instead they opted for ballistic missiles and possibly nukes as more achievable option .

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

plawolf said:

Problem being most of the kit Iran is operating was designed and built during a time when even the idea of modular systems did not yet exist.

If the Chinese are helping Iran upgrade their fighters, both sides are better off if they just stripped out all the existing avionics and put in a brand new modern Chinese suit in. The problem with such a move would be cost, and but the fact that all existing weapons would either need to be reintegrated onto the Chinese system, or brand new munitions would need to be purchased.

Since Iran is under an embargo, China is unlikely to provide new modern munitions, and that would greatly diminish the value and usefulness of an upgrade program. On top of that, Iran is under constant threat of US attack, and is no doubt subject to intense surveillance and scrutiny as can be seen with the capture of US drones in Iranian territory earlier this year.

Not only would the US administration be jumping up and down and telling everyone about China's involvement in upgrading Iranian fighters if it was true, there is also a good chance that American intelligence would be able to gather real, useful data on Chinese avionics if they were sold to Iran. That was the main reason an Iranian J8II deal never happened. The Chinese were more than happy to supply the Iranians with J8IIs with Russian Zhuk radars, but the Iranians wanted the exact same sets as what the PLAAF used, and there was simply no way the PLAAF was going to allow that. And of that was in the 90s before Iran's nuclear weapons program and the threat of American military action.

All of this makes me doubt this story even more.

Click to expand...

The Chinese can export considerable amount of dual use aviation equipment to Iran without coming into strict violation of any UN embargo. I see no reason why the afore mentioned GPS moving map and flat screen display equipment should be restricted by embargo. They are to be found on almost any modern commercial aircraft.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

thunderchief said:

First , there is UN mandated arms embargo :

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Second , China could not sell J-10s or J-11s without Russia supplying engines .

Third , Iran would need at least 500 modern airplanes with weapons , top notch trained pilots and good SAM coverage to deter US & Israel . Obviously , they could not afford that - instead they opted for ballistic missiles and possibly nukes as more achievable option .

Click to expand...

Why did China sign that embargo? It was a perfect opportunity for them to sell weapons such as J-10A, JF-17, L-15, C-8XX series AShM, MRL rockets, and LOADS of other things as well.

Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

chuck731 said:

The Chinese can export considerable amount of dual use aviation equipment to Iran without coming into strict violation of any UN embargo. I see no reason why the afore mentioned GPS moving map and flat screen display equipment should be restricted by embargo. They are to be found on almost any modern commercial aircraft.

Click to expand...

These are not what Iran needs. Iran obviously has the ability to gain these equipment, as seen on their recent Q313, but their main force of aircraft are simply outdated. They need new planes.