The Snowden Affair

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AssassinsMace

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July 10, 2013


Differences on Cybertheft Complicate China Talks

By DAVID E. SANGER


WASHINGTON — Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. opened annual strategic talks with senior Chinese leaders here on Wednesday by repeating the United States’ accusation that the electronic theft of American intellectual property could undermine the relationship between the world’s two largest economies.

And to no one’s surprise, the Chinese had an answer ready: that the publication of secret documents showing the extent of American surveillance of Chinese universities and other institutions undercuts the Obama administration’s case.

That friction, American officials conceded in private, underscores how difficult it will be for the United States to make progress on what President Obama and his top aides have said is now a central issue between two countries whose economies are intertwined and whose militaries are in competition.

And at a time when the Chinese economy is showing signs that it is headed into a period of slower growth, the administration’s hopes of persuading Chinese leaders to crack down on the daily barrage of theft and espionage over the Internet — considered crucial to keep China competitive — is likely to be even more difficult.

“We both will benefit from an open, secure, reliable Internet,” Mr. Biden said at the opening of the talks, the Strategic and Economic Dialogue, an annual effort to bring together top Chinese and American cabinet and subcabinet officials on a range of problems. “Outright cyber-enabling theft that U.S. companies are experiencing now must be viewed as out of bounds and needs to stop.”

Mr. Biden was making the same point that Mr. Obama repeated in recent weeks, including during a meeting with China’s new president, Xi Jingping, in California. To the Americans, China’s cybertheft — often directed by units of the People’s Liberation Army — is different, and far more corrosive, than standard government espionage.

An American official who was sent out to brief reporters after the first day of talks said that when it came to the theft of intellectual property — including the designs of commercial products and military aircraft — “we don’t do it, and we don’t think any country should do it.”

China has always viewed the issue differently, seeing far less of a distinction involving what it regards as issues of economic and military security.

“For many Chinese, it is bizarre that how Washington can continue to pose as the biggest cyberespionage victim and demand others behave well,” China Daily, a government-influenced publication, wrote before the meeting, “after former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden revealed that U.S. spy agencies hacked deep into China and other countries’ computer networks, including those of government, military, research, educational and business organizations.”

It concluded that “by dividing cyberespionage into ‘bad’ and ‘good’ activities, Washington is trying to dictate the rules for global cyberdomain, which is a public space.”

American and Chinese cyberexperts met Monday for the first time in a working group intended to address the issue. That alone was progress: when the United States asked Chinese officials to discuss cybertheft, cyberespionage and cybersecurity at a meeting several years ago, there was almost no give and take. But new attention focused on the activities of the Chinese military, notably Unit 61398 of the People’s Liberation Army, has made it harder for Mr. Xi’s government to ignore the United States’ protests.

Mr. Snowden’s revelations may be a gift to the Chinese, because they shift the focus from China’s covert activities to Washington’s. And even American scholars say the Chinese have a good argument. “It is not true that ‘unwritten rules’ prohibit economic espionage,” said Jack Goldsmith, a Harvard law professor and cyberexpert who served in the Bush administration. “Economic espionage is expressly prohibited by U.S. domestic law but is not prohibited by international law, written or unwritten, and it is widely practiced.”

The most fruitful part of the conversations, American officials indicated in a briefing late on Wednesday, dealt with North Korea and climate change, two areas where the governments have been moving into alignment.

Interesting how Obama still tries to differentiate China's espionage from the US with what the US does is all right. What it really comes down to is if what's said China has gotten from it, the only difference is China getting more than the US is the crime not what kind of espionage. Which is to claim what the US gets from espionage on China is worthless. But then why would the spy in the first place if it didn't hold some value. That is what is called spin. Given also the EU's reaction to the US spying on them, which is economic espionage, the same kind China is told is "illegal," it seems only wrong when you do it to a friend but okay to an enemy. So that means they have no grounds to complain when China does it.
 

plawolf

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Interesting how Obama still tries to differentiate China's espionage from the US with what the US does is all right. What it really comes down to is if what's said China has gotten from it, the only difference is China getting more than the US is the crime not what kind of espionage. Which is to claim what the US gets from espionage on China is worthless. But then why would the spy in the first place if it didn't hold some value. That is what is called spin. Given also the EU's reaction to the US spying on them, which is economic espionage, the same kind China is told is "illegal," it seems only wrong when you do it to a friend but okay to an enemy. So that means they have no grounds to complain when China does it.

I called this as soon as the Snowden affair broke, nothing will change, America will merely split hairs to try and differentiate between what they do (good spying) and what China does (cyber theft), note the concerted rebranding effort already underway in that very article.

Sometimes I honestly can't tell if American officials really cannot recognise their own hypocrisy, or if they just feel trapped since they have already made such a big issue of cyber spying that they feel compelled to keep pressing the issue to avoid loosing face by appearing to canceded the point and back down.

But regardless, I think the only thing China will take from such behaviour is that American leaders leave their sense of shame and moral campus at the door when they decided to run for office.
 

tphuang

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I called this as soon as the Snowden affair broke, nothing will change, America will merely split hairs to try and differentiate between what they do (good spying) and what China does (cyber theft), note the concerted rebranding effort already underway in that very article.

Sometimes I honestly can't tell if American officials really cannot recognise their own hypocrisy, or if they just feel trapped since they have already made such a big issue of cyber spying that they feel compelled to keep pressing the issue to avoid loosing face by appearing to canceded the point and back down.

But regardless, I think the only thing China will take from such behaviour is that American leaders leave their sense of shame and moral campus at the door when they decided to run for office.

If there is anything we should know by know, it's that politicians, no matter which country, are the greatest at lying through their teeth. The Obama administration has mastered this art. They can't stop themselves and will keep it up regardless of how obvious it is.
 

montyp165

Junior Member
One thing this whole affair I feel people need to understand is there is a limit to how much spin an organization can do before things break down completely wrt acceptance of presentation, particularly with the track record the US government has over the past 70 years. There will be a point in which the public at large will reach critical mass in terms of tolerating whatever the government says. One only needs to see how bad the rest of the world including Europe views US policies and spin doctoring from Bush Jr. onwards....
 

lostsoul

Junior Member
With the newest revelations that the NSA has been putting "special" code into Microsoft products since Windows 95 and now Android. The US Gov. should just STFU until they clean their own house. They have lost their perceived moral high ground.

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, The Guardian's journalist who first broke the Snowden story, said that "Snowden has enough information to cause more damage to the U.S. government in a minute alone than anyone else has ever had in the history of the United States.

Asked if he was afraid that Snowden might be killed, Greenwald said: “If something were to happen, those documents would be made public. This is your insurance policy," according to The Hill. "The U.S. government should be on your knees every day praying that nothing happens to Snowden, because if something happens, all information will be revealed and that would be their worst nightmare,
 

mr.bean

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With the newest revelations that the NSA has been putting "special" code into Microsoft products since Windows 95 and now Android. The US Gov. should just STFU until they clean their own house. They have lost their perceived moral high ground.

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I think this journalist from the Guardian needs to STFU and quit writing about snowden. he is way over his head and don't know that he is already a dead man, a walking corpse. there will be assassinations to all people helping snowden. there is no way the US will just let it slide. you guys heard what the US delegation said in regards to the handling of snowden at the US-china strategic dialogue right? they cant do much to china or Russia but every other little rascals will be ''dealt'' with! you can expect to hear about ''natural accidents'' causing death to these people very soon.
 
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vesicles

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I think this journalist from the Guardian needs to STFU and quit writing about snowden. he is way over his head and don't know that he is already a dead man, a walking corpse. there will be assassinations to all people helping snowden. there is no way the US will just let it slide. you guys heard what the US delegation said in regards to the handling of snowden at the US-china strategic dialogue right? they cant do much to china or Russia but every other little rascals will be ''dealt'' with! you can expect to hear about ''natural accidents'' causing death to these people very soon.

Assassinating Snowden will make the Obama admin look even worse. If Anything, and I mean absolutely anything, would happen to Snowden, it would automatically be linked to the US govnt, true or not. Since the US laws strictly prohibit assassination, this would be one more scandal added to the Obama admin's woes. So the journalist was correct in pointing out that that last thing the US govn't wants is for something to happen to Snowden. It would be impossible for them to explain themselves. In fact, they might be doing everything in their power to protect Snowden in case another country wants to make the US look bad and orchestrate some accident...
 

Player 0

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Assassinating Snowden will make the Obama admin look even worse. If Anything, and I mean absolutely anything, would happen to Snowden, it would automatically be linked to the US govnt, true or not. Since the US laws strictly prohibit assassination, this would be one more scandal added to the Obama admin's woes. So the journalist was correct in pointing out that that last thing the US govn't wants is for something to happen to Snowden. It would be impossible for them to explain themselves. In fact, they might be doing everything in their power to protect Snowden in case another country wants to make the US look bad and orchestrate some accident...

The law might prohibit that, but there is a precedent of assassinations against American citizens with drones, they might be openly affiliated with terrorist groups, but they were still US citizens all the same.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Assassinating Snowden will make the Obama admin look even worse. If Anything, and I mean absolutely anything, would happen to Snowden, it would automatically be linked to the US govnt, true or not. Since the US laws strictly prohibit assassination, this would be one more scandal added to the Obama admin's woes. So the journalist was correct in pointing out that that last thing the US govn't wants is for something to happen to Snowden. It would be impossible for them to explain themselves. In fact, they might be doing everything in their power to protect Snowden in case another country wants to make the US look bad and orchestrate some accident...

Um, drone strikes ring any bells?

Right now, there is too much heat, and it would damage the US too much to kill Snowden, that is why he is still alive. Its not some secret stash of unpublished documents that is keeping him alive, its his notoriety, and going public was probably one of the smartest move he has madero far.
 

SampanViking

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Likewise any accidents befalling Mr Greenwald would generate major consequences from large parts of the mainstream media.
Very clearly, behind the Snowden soap opera, there is a real power struggle going on with the US, of which the Snowden revelations are an integral part. The next Presidential election could actually be very interesting.
 
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