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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

I beg to differ, unless China "dumps" North Korea, South Korea will never side with China

Maybe you are not up to date with current affairs, but China is no friend of NK, and is being held hostage by NK as much as America or South Korea.

I have stated multiple times before that I think Beijing would be willing to make a grand bargain with SK, whereby the whole of the Korean Peninsula is reunited under South Korea, in exchange for South Korea allying itself with China.

South Korea may think they can get a better deal sticking with the US, but if Japan shows signs of returning to its militaristic ways and America looks to be encouraging them, then SK's calculations may change accordingly.

Chinese always supported the North Koreans, including the invasion of South Korea - Remember Korean War?

Maybe you are not up to date with your history either. It was the Soviets who armed the North Koreans. China did not get involved in the Korean War until the US forces ignored an explicit warnings not to advance too close to the Chinese boarder.

There is no denying that the Japanese did wrong to countries in Asia by invading their territories during WW II.

Either you don't know much about your history, in which case I would suggest you familiarise yourself with the relevant details before coming up with conclusions, or that is a case of an attempt to downplay the true nature of Imperialist Japan's war crimes on par with what the revisionists are trying to do with Japanese history books.

However, as long as they are now the allies of the US and Democratic Countries, they will likely refrain from being the pompous dictators.

Oh please spare us the sanctimonious propaganda about how 'democracies' are inherent better. Just look back at recent history and you can see that your precious democracies are responsible for more than its fair share of wars of aggression since WWII.

Even WWII in Europe could arguably be said to have been started by a democracy. Modern pro-democracy writers would nit pick and spin till they go blue, but the cold hard fact remains that Hitler rose to power via the ballot box, and was wildly popular for pretty much the entire war to the point that had regular elections been held, he would have won by a landslide by any voting system.

It is precisely this kind of blind wishful thinking and complacency that allowed special interests to push democracies into waging wars of aggression in the past, and will make it easy for them to do so again if people simply do not learn.

We will have to observe which country or countries would be the "bullies" from now on. The lesson to be learnt is "Action begets reactions" - inc. Japanese return to militarism.

Indeed we should, although something tells me you and I would come to very different conclusions on who has actually been the bully and who the victim.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

During the Korean War, Chinese involvement was due to the fear of an imperialist U.S. and its invasion of China after securing a foothold on the Chinese border, which today both side know it was a misunderstanding. With the new geopolitical environment and DPRK's constant defiant of the PRC, China's support is limited. I am not sure if China will send troops to defend North Korea if South Korea invades(lets face it, RoK. want none of DPRK right now). Unity on the Korean Peninsula is impossible with the current N.K leadership, there will have to be a revolution or a coup d'etat within the DPRK and then peace might be possible.

China has a mutual defence treaty with NK, so like it or not, if NK is invaded without cause, China would be treaty bound to come to NK's defence. The upshot is the treaty expires in 2020, and I seriously doubt China would renew it after then.

Regarding Korean reunification, the issue at hand is one of balance and cost. The two Koreas cannot reunify unless both China and America sign off. China will never allow SK to swallow NK if SK is allied to America and reunification under SK means US military bases right across from the Chinese boarder.

Reunification under NK is such a none starter it is not even worth discussing.

The only way the two Koreas would reunify is with China's blessing and support and American acquiescence, and the only way China would agree to reunification under SK is if it got cast iron assurances about the new unified Korea's allegiances.

Right now, neither SK or China trust each other enough to ditch the current, respective allies and jump into bed together, but a newly militarising Japan could easily be the catalyst both sides needs to overcome their differences and mistrust.


As for militarization of Japan, no one would mind if Japan apologized and admitted their crimes. The Germany Prime Minister during her visit to Poland got down on her knees apologizing for her nation. (the Poland delegate asked her, why do you apologize, it wasn't the Germany of today who committed the crime, she answered "it was our people, i feel ashamed for my predecessors to commit such atrocity"). and today as we can see the EU is at peace with one and other, even military cooperation between Germany and its neighbors. Japan on the other hand, not only they do not apologize(the samurai tradition, root of the Japanese civilization does not look at themselves as they lost to China or its neighbors, they do not admit defeat to them since it was America the one put Japan on its knees), they even have further territory disputes dating all the way back to WWII. so right now when Japan see the rise of China, they fear retaliation, they are plagued by their guilt and their tradition would not allow them to admit their crime and atrocity. and with this mentality, and the current far right taking power inside Japanese politics, a japan that will make peace with its neighbors is faint. however i don't think they will fully revive militarism, after all, they are the only nation suffered the wrong end of a nuclear bomb, i don't think the Japanese people will allow the full revival of Japanese militarism.

Excellent post, and one that captures Japan's peculiar mindset very well, and goes a long way to explain why there is such a difference of perception between east and west on Japan.

Japan has had no issue with apologising to America about WWII, and that is because America defeated them. Hell, one does not have to look deep into Japanese modern culture and national psyche to see that many modern Japanese buy into American culture and values in a big way, almost to the point where they see American (and western culture by extension) as superior and wish they were Americans themselves.

Modern Japan's worship of all things America is as strong as its loathing and contempt for all things Chinese and Korean. That is why many Japanese has such a hard time expressing remorse and contrition - because they don't feel it. According to Japanese tradition, if you loose in battle, you are disgraced and deserving of neither mercy or compassion, indeed, there is a well documented and even celebrated samurai tradition of ritual suicide by those defeated in battle but who do not die on the battlefield, that is the only way a defeated foe can be respected. This loathing and contempt also helps to explain how ordinary Japanese soldiers were able to commit the kinds of atrocities they did on such a large scale. In contrast, Nazi Germany had to build concentration camps because massed executions duty was deemed too detrimental to the moral of regular line troops.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

China won't intervene!
China will collapse!
China will 'dump' North Korea!

Time and time again, the West has underestimated China, questioning China's willingness to aid and protect her allies, and challenging China's historical status as the supreme military power in East Asia.

Korea can only reunify if American acquiesces to China having ultimate final influence on the Korean peninsula, akin to the Sino-Korean relationship pre-1895, and thus can only be concretely demonstrated by an alliance between China and Korea against U.S. troops based in re-militarized Japan.
 
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montyp165

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

Regarding Japanese militarist sentiment, interestingly enough pop culture elements like the (in)famous anime and manga subcultures for instance tend much to be very strongly against the right-wing elements in Japan (if you've ever seen Zipang for instance), as they've not only acknowledge the better socioeconomic environment of post-war Japan compared to the rigidly structured pre-war imperial system, the pointless sacrifice of people and resources for the benefit of those right-wing elites compounded by the right-wings hate of modern Japanese pop culture, so even in Japan the culture wars can be crazier than the worst Red State/Blue State nuttiness in the US. (At the very least the pop culture recognizes the very bad things Japan did during the War, so that's something Chinese PR should take into account).
 

kroko

Senior Member
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

Right now, neither SK or China trust each other enough to ditch the current, respective allies and jump into bed together, but a newly militarising Japan could easily be the catalyst both sides needs to overcome their differences and mistrust.

Even if SK agrees to ditch US troops and the military aliance with the US, dont count on them to align with china against japan. I think it would be rather a neutral state in the NE asia, kinda like Áustria was during cold war.
 

lostsoul

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

ROFL

Japan's dire demographic & economic problems do not lend well to a "Return to Militarism".
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Japan's military build-up

I've changed the title of this thread to better reflect the true circumstances of the Japanese military.

bd popeye super moderator
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Japan's military build-up

I bet there is controversy over this photo in Japan. Especially Okinawa. Where they have a belief that Osprey's fall out of the sky on a daily basis.

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A Marine MV-22 Osprey aircraft lands on the Japanese helicopter destroyer(LPH) JS Hyuga Friday, June 14, 2013, in coastal waters off San Diego. The aircraft made an unprecedented landing on the vessel Friday, despite protests in Japan over concerns over the tilt-rotor aircraft's safety record. (AP Photo/Gregory Bull)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Japanese Return to Militarism!

ROFL

Japan's dire demographic & economic problems do not lend well to a "Return to Militarism".
And yet, the have a VERY strong military already.

Their constitution forbids having a regular Army, Navy, or Air Force (Article 9). So, they called it a Self-Defense Force and went ahead anyway. Sort of like calling the
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and the newer, building
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vessels, "destroyers." One look at either and everyone knows what they are.

And the US encouraged them to do so during the Cold War because it was in US interests to have a strong buffer and ally against the Soviet Union in the Western Pacific. Those are just the facts.

The Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force (JMSDF) is among the strongest, most well trained navies in the world.

They have 74 major combatants available, all of which are modern, with new classes currently under construction:

02 x building 22DDH Class 27,000 ton CVLs
02 x Hyuga Class 20,000 ton CVHs
03 X Osumi Class 14,000 ton LPDs
02 x Shirane Class, 7,500 ton DDHs
02 x Atago Class 10,000 AEGIS DDGs
04 x Kongo Class 9,500 ton AEGIS DDGs
02 x Akizuki Class 6,800 ton DDGs (and 2-6 more building)
05 x Takanami Class 6,300 ton DDGs
09 X Murasami Class 6,100 ton DDGs
02 x Hatakazi Class 5,900 ton DDGs
08 x Asagiri Class 4,900 ton FFGs
05 x Hatsuyuki Class 4,000 ton FFGs
06 x Abukuma Class 2,500 ton FFGs
05 X Mashu and Towada Class 15-25,000 tons AORs
05 x Soryu Class 4,200 ton SSKs (4 more building)
11 x Oyashio Class 4,000 ton SSKs

That's 4 carriers, 26 guided missile destroyers, 19 guided missile frigates, 3 LPDs, and 16 very modern diesel/electric submarines. They train extensively with these vessels, both on their own, and with the US Navy.

Note, this list does not contain their 29 counter mine warfare vessels, or 28 other patrol, support, intelligence and training vessels. Altogether, the JMSDF has over 130 active vessels.

I bet there is controversy over this photo in Japan. Especially Okinawa. Where they have a belief that Osprey's fall out of the sky on a daily basis.
That is a GREAT pic, Popeye. Here's three more on the Hyuga.


f7700c840967c814340f6a7067007ffe.jpg


9046787786_68394d786f_b.jpg


9044563873_4ca381958f_b.jpg


In addition, apparently a US Marine Osprey also landed on one of their Osumi class LPDs.


9046776324_e0e20a813f_b.jpg


9046863142_88e2aefdbb_b.jpg


Good crossdecking stuff!
 
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montyp165

Junior Member
Re: Japan's military build-up

The JMSDF like its Imperial predecessor has a significant number of advanced combat vessels and trained crews, but at the same time I would still consider the Russian and Chinese fleets to have the better logistical support and organizational/doctrinal framework necessary for total war operations if it ever came to that, strategically speaking more favorably comparable to the USN rather than the relative Royal Navy/German Navy force ratio levels during the world wars.
 
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