Political and Military Analysis on China

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Franklin

Captain
I think we are all a bit surprised by the white paper report that the PLA ground forces number only 850000 and that the PLA numbers about 1,58 million man strong as a whole. In the white paper of 2006 the PLA was numbered at 2,3 million man. That means that in the past 7 years 700000 man has been cut from the PLA meaning on average 100000 man a year. But then i remember this story from back in 2009 where it says that the PLA would cut 700000 man in 3 years in order to streamline the organization and free up more resources for training and modern arms purchases. It was back then never officially confirmed so the story died down. Now it appears that the story might well be correct.

EXCLUSIVE: China air, naval boost risks raising tension

BEIJING | Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:17am EDT

(Reuters) - China plans to cut back its army and boost the navy and air force, sources with ties to the People's Liberation Army said, extending its military reach and risking greater regional tensions.

China, which celebrates the 60th founding of the People's Republic on Thursday with a massive military parade, aims to cut its army by 700,000 troops over two to three years as part of its drive to modernize the world's biggest military into a leaner high-tech force, the two sources said.

The PLA also plans to boost navy and air force personnel over that period, the sources said. Both requested anonymity to avoid repercussions for speaking to foreign reporters without authorization.

Xu Guangyu, a former PLA officer now at the government-backed China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, said he had not heard of the 700,000 figure but was sure cuts were coming.

"After several years there will have to be more reductions so we can continue improving weapons and creating crack troops," Xu told Reuters. "The land forces will remain dominant, but the navy and air force will rise as a proportion of the PLA."

China watchers are monitoring international deployments for signs of China's rising global status translating into a more assertive foreign policy and presence. Chinese warships steamed to waters off Somalia in December to help in anti-piracy patrols.

Recently, Chinese vessels have become involved in jostling with U.S. surveillance vessels in seas off the Chinese coast that Beijing claims are in its exclusive economic zone.

And China has never renounced the use of force to bring self-ruled and democratic Taiwan, which it considers sovereign territory, under its rule. But ties have improved since the election of Taiwan President Ma Ying-jeou last year.

Increased Chinese military activity around a series of disputed atolls and rocks in the South China Sea has worried Vietnam, Malaysia and the Philippines, which have their own territorial claims. Japan urged China this week to cut its nuclear arsenal, illustrating its wariness of China's might.

"Cutting the army doesn't affect the rest of Asia very much, what people are concerned about is boosting the air force and navy, such as by having aircraft carriers," said Ikuo Kayahara, professor of security studies at Takushoku University and a retired major general in Japan's ground forces.

"If they are increasing them by the same amount as they cut the army, this is a very big problem. But I do wonder if it's actually possible."

Uday Bhaskar, of the National Maritime Foundation in India, which has long-festering border disputes with China, said any large army should concentrate on technology over manpower.

"For India, I think if the Chinese are able to implement this particular policy that they're now articulating, it would heighten the asymmetry between India and China in terms of straight military capacity in China's favor," he said.

NUMBERS SHRINK, WEAPONS IMPROVE

The PLA was born out of the Red Army, a five-million-strong peasant army, and became the national armed force after Communist leader Mao Zedong swept to power 60 years ago.

The cuts to land forces and additions to the other arms of the military would mean that PLA troop numbers shrink from 2.3 million, but the final tally is unclear.

China has cut troop numbers in recent years to free up cash for better training and conditions and more advanced weapons. The navy is considering building an aircraft carrier.

Neither source was sure when the planned reduction would be announced. It needs the approval of the Communist Party's Central Military Commission, which is headed by President Hu Jintao.

One of the sources said China plans to retire and replace aged aircraft over the next three to five years. The streamlining will also involve hiving off military hospital personnel and performing troupes, the sources said.

Xu, the former PLA officer, said that under Beijing's long-term plan for military modernisation, reductions could happen gradually over the coming decade.

"Costs are rising, so we have to keep military spending in line with budgetary capacity," he said.

China's armed forces are far bigger than the world's second-largest military, that of the United States, whose forces number around 1.5 million.

Thursday will be marked by a show of military force along the Avenue of Eternal Peace, which is expected to feature an array of new and improved weaponry, including missiles.

President Hu has made the navy's modernization his personal project, but it has far from erased a technological gap with the United States and other major powers. The PLA Navy has about 290,000 personnel, many on aged vessels.

China has become increasingly vocal about its ambition to become a deep-water power, concluding it must master the logistical and technological demands of a blue water navy.

China boasts the world's third-largest air force, with about 400,000 personnel and 2,000 combat aircraft.

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Lion

Senior Member
I have a question about PLA armed forces. PLA is traditionally an army oriented armed forces from its early root. Most of the high command post of PLA are held by army officers including the Minister Defence of China.

With China economy advancing at lighting speed in the past 10 years. Focus has changed as demand and importancy of Navy and Airforce grew significantly while army modernisation is still continuing. It is undeniable that focus on army is less in the spotlight. How will the army oriental PLA army view the rising of Navy and Airforce a threat to their importancy?

Will army side of PLA army allow the rise of navy and airforce and being magnaminous to even allow future minister of defence post of China for an navy or airforce officer in near future for the sake of Whole China? I will say Human nature tend to be abit selfish and protective of their own kind. It will be quite believable, the army side will easily accept the change of tides without even abit of struggle and retention of power for themselves which they have been holding for decades..
 

ABC78

Junior Member
I think we are all a bit surprised by the white paper report that the PLA ground forces number only 850000 and that the PLA numbers about 1,58 million man strong as a whole. In the white paper of 2006 the PLA was numbered at 2,3 million man. That means that in the past 7 years 700000 man has been cut from the PLA meaning on average 100000 man a year. But then i remember this story from back in 2009 where it says that the PLA would cut 700000 man in 3 years in order to streamline the organization and free up more resources for training and modern arms purchases. It was back then never officially confirmed so the story died down. Now it appears that the story might well be correct.



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Can we really say they're personnel cuts since most of the personnel were transferred to the People's Armed Police which has grown and the PAP falls under the Army's command.
 

escobar

Brigadier
I think we are all a bit surprised by the white paper report that the PLA ground forces number only 850000 and that the PLA numbers about 1,58 million man strong as a whole. In the white paper of 2006 the PLA was numbered at 2,3 million man. That means that in the past 7 years 700000 man has been cut from the PLA meaning on average 100000 man a year. But then i remember this story from back in 2009 where it says that the PLA would cut 700000 man in 3 years in order to streamline the organization and free up more resources for training and modern arms purchases. It was back then never officially confirmed so the story died down. Now it appears that the story might well be correct.

“The PLA Army (PLAA) is composed of mobile operational units, border and coastal defense units, guard and garrison units.” The 850,000 figure does not include “border and coastal defense units, guard and garrison units,” nor does it include Army personnel assigned to the four General Departments in Beijing and their affiliated organizations, the seven Military Region headquarters, or the personnel in the local headquarters at provincial, prefectural, and county levels (described by the 2004 and 2006 white papers), or those in the Army’s system of military academies and universities. Second Artillery personnel also are not included in the 850,000 (some estimates assess the Second Artillery to have about 100,000 personnel).

By subtracting the personnel numbers for the Navy and Air Force from the PLA’s total strength of 2.3 million, 1,667,000 personnel remain. That number represents the combined strength of both the Army and Second Artillery. The 850,000 number is a subset of the 1.667 million—or, slightly more than half of the total Army and Second Artillery manpower:
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ABC78

Junior Member
This story is more about the US but the consequences involve China.

America's War Games
How the Obama administration is redefining the US military's strategic priorities with far-reaching consequences.

The United States' military expenditures today account for about 40 percent of the world total. In 2012, the US spent some $682bn on its military - an amount more than what was spent by the next 13 countries combined.

Now that the war in Iraq is over and the withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan will be complete in 2014, the stage might therefore appear to be set for a decrease in US defence spending. Even in Washington DC, many have argued that the defence budget can be cut substantially and the resulting "peace dividend" could be diverted to more pressing domestic concerns, such as dealing with the nation's continuing economic problems.

You can't do anything about it [because] there's too much political support.

Chuck Spinney, a defence analyst ,

However, a battle to ward off cuts to the Pentagon's budget has begun and the way things are going, it seems likely that the US will have the smallest drawdown or reduction of the military budget after a period of conflict since World War II - in comparative terms, smaller than after Vietnam, Korea and the end of the Cold War.

The Pentagon's joint chiefs of staff have appeared before Congress warning of dire results from the impacts of sequestration, a requirement to reduce defence spending by $500bn over 10 years that grew out of a 2011 budget deal between President Obama and Congress. In March, sequestration led to a $41bn cut in 2013 defence spending.

Pentagon officials, defence companies, politicians and conservative commentators argue that defence cuts will be devastating for the military and the economy. Others point out that after sequestration, the Pentagon's base defence budget, which does not include additional funds for the war in Afghanistan - will remain above the Cold War average, and close to the highest level since World War II.

Chuck Spinney, who worked as an analyst in the US secretary of defence's office for 26 years, believes it is difficult for the United States to reap the benefits of a peace dividend because of the workings of the military-industrial complex that President Dwight Eisenhower warned about in his final 1961 address.

"It's what in Washington we call an iron triangle," Spinney says, " you have an alliance between the private sector, the defence contractors, the executive branch, in this case the Pentagon, and the legislative branch."

Everyone benefits from expensive procurement projects - the Pentagon gets weapons, defence companies get to make profits, and politicians get re-elected by funding armaments that generate jobs for constituents and campaign contributions from defence companies.

The result, according to Spinney, is a defence budget "that is packed to the gills with weapons we don't need, with weapons that are underestimated in their future costs".

The Pentagon and defence contractors low-ball costs and exaggerate performance in the early stages of a project to "turn on the money spigot". Then the companies engage in "political engineering," they spread the contracts and employment for a weapon around to as many Congressional districts as possible. They do that, Spinney says, so that once cost-overruns and performance problems become apparent, "you can't do anything about it [because] there's too much political support".

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a textbook case of a Pentagon procurement project that reveals why it is difficult to cut the defence budget. Three versions of the F-35 are being built for the Air Force, Navy and Marines by Lockheed Martin, the largest defence contractor in the US. The F-35 is the most expensive military weapons programme in US history, bigger than the Manhattan Project that produced nuclear weapons.

The F-35 was sold as a programme that would cost $226bn for about 2,900 aircrafts. It is now seven years behind schedule, and the price has increased almost 100 percent to $400bn for only 2,400 fighters. At least another $1 trillion will be required for operations and maintenance of the F-35 over its lifetime.

Pierre Sprey, an aircraft engineer and analyst who was one of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's 'whizz kids' in the 1960s, believes that the project should be cancelled or "there will be so little money left over for anything that's needed, it'll be unbelievable. They'll be cutting people, pilots, training, everything just to pay for this thing."

There will be so little money left over for anything that's needed, it'll be unbelievable.

Pierre Sprey, an aircraft engineer and analyst

Sprey played a key role in the design and procurement of the F-16 fighter and the A-10 ground support plane, two mainstays of the current US Air Force fleet.

Mike Rein, the F-35 spokesman for Lockheed, says that the company saw the period from 2012 and into 2013 as "a step of great progress for the programme and [something which is] certainly going in the right direction". He points to the tests of the F-35 that were completed in 2012. Sprey argues that "they're re-testing stuff they already failed. So this isn't progress. This is like every day that you're flying, you're finding new problems. And you're slipping the schedule worse and worse."

The F-35 was supposed to be operational by 2012, but critics say it is unlikely to be deployed before 2017 at the earliest.

Despite a litany of engineering and performance problems, Congress continues to support the programme. Lockheed has spread jobs and contracts to 47 states and Puerto Rico, according to its website.

The company also seems to have an international political engineering strategy - eight countries besides the US are involved in the aircraft's development program - including Britain, Italy, Canada, Australia and Turkey. Meanwhile, Israel, Singapore and Japan have plans to buy the fighter.
According to Spinney, that "makes it even more difficult to cut the programme because now you're creating an international incident of some kind. That's no accident. It was done deliberately."

Pork barrel deal-making that goes on in Congress over weapons projects also makes it hard to secure a peace dividend.

According to William Hartung of the Center for International Policy, "there will be a sort of log rolling process where you know, ‘I'll support your weapons system if you support my weapons system.' And so once that horse trading goes on, then it's much harder to cut anything."

Two years ago, the US army announced that it could save close to $2.8bn by pausing production of the Abrams M1 tank. Ray Odierno, the army chief of staff, said the M1 fleet was in good shape and no more tanks were needed. The Pentagon does not see much use for the M1 in confronting 21st century threats like terrorism and piracy. However, Congress did not go along. Over the last two years, it has provided $355bn to keep the M1 production line rolling at the Joint Systems Manufacturing Center in Lima, Ohio.

General Dynamics, which operates the tank plant, spent $22m on lobbying Congress over the past two years, and about $2m on campaign contributions. According to the David Berger, the mayor of Lima, General Dynamics also put together a study claiming that it would be more cost-effective to keep the tank plant open now than to reopen the plant in the future if it was needed.

The company would not send us the cost study, and declined our request for an interview.

Hartung says that Pentagon contractors have "for years used the jobs argument to revive weapons systems that have been cancelled. To push for things that even the Pentagon itself has not wanted." For months, a study has been circulating in Washington, underwritten by the Aerospace Industries Association, a major defence industry trade group. It claims that a million jobs would be lost as a result of sequestration cuts to defence spending.

Hartung, who has analysed the study, says it exaggerates the potential job loss number by a factor of three, and that many of those jobs will be replaced. He points out that spending on education, health care, and infrastructure "can create 1.5 to 2 times as many jobs. So the economy would be much better off spending on things other than the Pentagon."

Several recent reports examining ways to cut Pentagon spending call for changes in the US nuclear weapons posture. They claim that it would produce hundreds of billions of dollars of savings in coming decades, and the Obama administration is reportedly considering nuclear weapons cuts. But they will be difficult to achieve.

The economy would be much better off spending on things other than the Pentagon.

William Hartung, the Center for International Policy

"People are still mired in Cold War thinking and they feel like the more nuclear weapons we have the better," Hartung says. "And in addition to that the nuclear weapons industry has some of the biggest strongest companies in the military industrial complex."

Lockheed Martin builds submarines, launches ballistic missiles, and runs the nuclear weapons laboratories; General Dynamics builds nuclear subs; and Northrop Grumman, Boeing and Lockheed Martin are all hoping to build the next nuclear bomber.

Chuck Hagel, the new US secretary of defence, was a member of a US Nuclear Policy Commission sponsored by the anti-nuclear arms group Global Zero. Headed by a former vice chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, the commission called for shrinking the number of US nuclear warheads from 5,000 to 900. Commission members also thought there was little risk in eliminating ballistic missiles from the US nuclear delivery triad of submarines, bombers and missiles.

At his confirmation hearing, Hagel was attacked by senators whose states have a stake in the nuclear weapons business, and subsequently criticised by the staff of conservative think tanks like the Heritage Foundation. Steve Bucci, the head of the Center for Foreign Policy Studies at Heritage, believes that any change in America's nuclear posture would be "a very foolish thing to do".

Along with two other think tanks, Heritage has launched a campaign called Defending Defence to ward off cuts to the US defence budget. A major reason is the potential threat they see from China, which Bucci says "cannot be underestimated. They are trying to make themselves a world power, not just a regional power."

In his view, the US needs to keep defence spending high, in case the Chinese become "more aggressive and hostile".

Concerns about China were reflected in the Obama administration's announcement last year that it is re-positioning US military resources to the Asia-Pacific region after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is estimated that China spends about one-fifth to one-quarter as much on its military as the US. Spinney and others see warnings about China and the administration's so-called Asia-Pacific "pivot" as a way to bolster defence spending in the face of pressure for cuts.

"We need a threat," Spinney says, "Al-Qaeda has sort of run out of strength and we have to have a new threat to justify continued spending." Spinney believes that there is little chance of a peace dividend after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. "We are going to pivot to Asia and increase the defence budget," he says.

There are signs he could be right.

This month, President Obama released a 2014 federal budget proposal that called for $526.6bn in funding for the department of defense. It was widely expected that the defence total would be at least $50bn less.

The White House and the Pentagon chose to ignore the statutory requirement for a $50bn reduction mandated by sequestration. They apparently hope that sequestration can be overturned, and defence budget cuts already agreed to, reversed. Instead of laying the groundwork for a peace dividend by putting the Pentagon on a glide path to smaller budgets, the administration's proposal projects increases in America's base defence budget over the next five years.

[video]http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2013/04/2013424113558268754.html[/video]

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escobar

Brigadier
CHINA’S MILITARY and The US-JAPAN ALLIANCE in 2030 - A STRATEGIC NET ASSESSMENT:
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The emergence of the People’s Republic of China as an increasingly significant military power in the Western Pacific presents major implications for Japan, the U.S.-Japan alliance, and regional security. But a comprehensive assessment of the current and possible future impact of China’s military capabilities and foreign security policies on Tokyo and the alliance, along with a detailed examination of the capacity and willingness of both the United States and Japan to respond to this challenge, is missing from the current debate. Such an analysis is essential for Washington and Tokyo to better evaluate the best approaches for maintaining deterrence credibility and regional stability over the long term.
 

kroko

Senior Member
CHINA’S MILITARY and The US-JAPAN ALLIANCE in 2030 - A STRATEGIC NET ASSESSMENT:
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2030? engaging in geopolitical futurology that afar is pointless IMO. Who knows what will be the future within 17 years? The world evolves too fast for it. China will be at the end of the six leadership generation (if the regime still stands).
 

J-XX

Banned Idiot
2030? engaging in geopolitical futurology that afar is pointless IMO. Who knows what will be the future within 17 years? The world evolves too fast for it. China will be at the end of the six leadership generation (if the regime still stands).

Dont worry about CPC, the CPC will be in power for atleast another 200 years. That's the average lifespan of Chinese dynasties. By 2030 China will be by FAR the largest economy (double the US economy). Technologically China will be number 1 too. I highly doubt any country can even touch China by 2030. China is already massive as of 2013, America is clearly in the decline, pretty clear for everyone to see. American empire is pretty close to its end with the staggering levels of debt and corruption in the political system (exposed by the Human Rights report issued by China). Americans are already leaving the US to find better opportunities, mostly come to China.
Chinese military will be the most powerful by 2030 as it has the money to afford it and the technology to stay ahead.
Already with weapons like the DF-21D and DF-41, China has pretty much neutralised the American military advantages.
By 2030 China will be way in front.

I just don't see ANY country challenging China by 2030.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I think you are a little bit too optimistic.

In 2030, China GDP will be bigger than the USA, but won't be 2x. Technologically, the US will be still ahead of China, especially in military technology. In civilian, probably very much about the same level :)
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
2030? engaging in geopolitical futurology that afar is pointless IMO. Who knows what will be the future within 17 years? The world evolves too fast for it. China will be at the end of the six leadership generation (if the regime still stands).

Of course the regime will still stand you idiot.

If China wouldn't emerge as a mega superpower, you wouldn't be at this forum trolling the Chinese with your anti-China bias.
 
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