Chinese purchase of Su-35

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AeroEngineer

Junior Member
Alll you poster's are posting some very good and reasonalbe comments.

However, if China clearly does NOT want the Su-35, S-400, and IL-476, IL-78M, plus Lada. Then why these news get brought up again, again and again ?

Why the Chinese Department of Defense does not just say:" No, the deal is not true" ??

Someone please explain it to me.

I have also visited some Chinese defense Forum like CJDBY (Chao Da). They all seen to believe it?

Why ??

________________________________

BTW, I strongly OPPOSE the Su-35 deal !
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
AeroEngineer said:
Alll you poster's are posting some very good and reasonalbe comments.

However, if China clearly does NOT want the Su-35, S-400, and IL-476, IL-78M, plus Lada. Then why these news get brought up again, again and again ?
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The news are only relevant if they are consistent in getting things right. History has proven the opposite, with almost all reported deals came out to be nothing. For example, rumors such as China buying Tu-22 gets repeated every single year, and we have yet to see a single Tu-22 in China, even as a museum piece.

AeroEngineer said:
Why the Chinese Department of Defense does not just say:" No, the deal is not true" ??

Someone please explain it to me.
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Chinese Department of Defense never said the deal is true either. Beside, the Russian Department of Defense already stated that no deal has been made.

AeroEngineer said:
I have also visited some Chinese defense Forum like CJDBY (Chao Da). They all seen to believe it?

Why ??
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There are also plenty of people who don't believe it. You should stop being selective with your examples.
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Would China really be spending that much money on Su-35 just for the engines

If they invested that money into domestic engine programme they would get the results much faster, but then with J10B, J31 and J20 is there any scope for Su-35?

Not to mention J11B and J16 programme which covers entire Flanker range, where does Su-35 fit I to this, and even if they do buy the Su-35 for the engine it will be years before China learns and produces anything like it, kind of like reinventing the wheel again whereas they could do much better with WS series, it might even out China back as much needed resources will be diverted away

And on a personal note I have not seen any Western outlet like AFM, Combat aircraft, Air international, etc etc ever reporting this Su-35 deal

The Lada Class submarines? I have no idea but again it's hard to see where they would fit in when you have a pretty successful SSK programme, and I have never seen Warship magazine report on this either

So to sum up, Su-35 and Lada Class might just be advertisement from Russia, which is good for them, and China not denying it kind of puts everyone at ease, thinking that China domestic military programmes are not that advanced and they still need to rely on Russian imports, I mean it kind if decreases the whole China threat thing, again fitting into the Chinese foreign policy

No such big ticket order has materialised for over a decade I would find it really hard to believe we would see it now, even the ones that did materialise were due to Taiwan issue where China kind of panic bought into Russian arms, a mistake unlikely to be repeated
 
superdog

superdog

Junior Member
2 Lada is going to be built in China, that would be a good opportunity for the Chinese sub building industry to learn about building advanced single-hull vessels. It is especially useful if they want to make this design transition for future indigenous subs.

Even if Lada is only as good as the newest Yuan, I'm sure they can still use ideas and parameters from the Lada design to better their own design. It is always good to have differently designed products as a reference, not necessarily to copy, but also to get inspiration and experience.

Su-35 may serve a similar purpose but to a lesser extent since it isn't going to be domestically manufactured, and it isn't as cutting-edge to AVIC as Lada is to Chinese sub-building industry.
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
Centrist said:
China and Russia just held a "surprise" military joint exercise. This seems to lend credence to the deal allegedly this deal went beyond simply Lada and Su35s and included enhanced military cooperation.

I know the odds of the deal are small, but I want to float this idea out there....

Is it possible that China need the 117s engine to complete flight testing of the J-20? If the J-20 is going to feature TVC, it would need to be flight tested as such. It will be many years before China's own TVC engine is available, at least 3 years, probably 5. Maybe China isn't seeking to copy the 117s, but they need an approximation of the WS-15 to fully and thoroughly flight test the J-20 (which by all accounts will be ready for operation years before the WS-15 will) otherwise the J-20 will fall years behind schedule as it waits for the WS-15 to finish.

Now, Russia is unwilling to sell the engines directly because it doesn't benefit them much, so they offer China to buy 48 Su-35's which would A) give a big boost to Russia defense industry and B) break the seal on SU-35 export orders. China doesn't want or need that many, so the number is reduced to 24 (possibly with the Lada submarine purchase thrown in to sweeten the deal).

You may argue that Russia has no intention of selling the Su-35 to China because of IPR concerns, but perhaps they recognize that China has no incentive to copy the Su-35. After all, by the time any copy of the Su-35 or 117s engine could be finished, the J-20 and WS-15 would already be operational. Also, if the J-20 has proven anything, it has proven that China's aerospace industry is at or above Russia's technological capability; the Su-35 is under no threat of being copied because China already has all of this technology. The only exception being the 117s engine, but as I pointed out, the effort to copy it would take longer than to finish the WS-15.

Just a theory, otherwise I cannot see why this deal would have been made.
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China hasn't shown a big interest in Russian thrust vectoring technologies or China would have purchased a special type of AL-31FN long time ago. What's more, as an aircraft with canard, the J-20 doesn't need thrust vectoring. Thrust vectoring can enable aircraft to fly at higher angle-of-attack than the tailplane permits, but the J-20 doesn't have tailplane and is not affected. The other use of thrust vectoring is for performing post-stall maneuvers, but those maneuvers have very little tactical values.

The AL-31 currently used on the J-20 do not have as much thrust as WS-15, but that can largely be overcame with reduced payload and fuel. For effects that AL-31 cannot approximate, such as control-response characteristics, the 117S isn't going to be able to approximate either. For the WS-15, the high pressure and high temperature section known as the core was already out in 2005. In other words, the most difficult part of the engine has already been done over half a decade ago. The 117S will provide very little technological value.

And like you have pointed out yourself, by the time China gets anywhere with the 117S, the WS-15 would have been ready. It makes no sense for China to spend money on items that have little use, especially when it will be more rewarding for China to put those money into domestic engine programs.
 
G

getready

Senior Member
I am changing my mind, maybe this deal is dumb for china to accept afterall, political ties may not be enough to warrant it when there may be better options out there. Tphuang seems to be leaning towards the deal having legs mainly because of the engines, based on his earlier post and blog entry. Plenty of us have laid our bets, interesting to see how this will turn out in the end.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
Whatever the engines of the Chengdu J-20 is, it is NOT the AL-31FN. The exhaust of the afterburner of the AL-31FN is red and that of the Chengdu J-20 is blue.

And why is the purchase of the SU-35BM by China still being discussed ? There are no official sources in China to confirm the purchase and China has already said earlier that they do not want to buy the SU-35BM and now the Russian government has come out to deny the sale of the SU-35BM and the Lada class subs. So the deal is dead in the water.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Franklin said:
Whatever the engines of the Chengdu J-20 is, it is NOT the AL-31FN. The exhaust of the afterburner of the AL-31FN is red and that of the Chengdu J-20 is blue.
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Even if I agree with the second part of Your post here You are wrong ! ... it IS the AL-31FN !!!
 

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