Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

QUOTE=Mysterre;224268]Nobody's waiting with baited breath for you to make any pronouncements here, just FYI. :)[/QUOTE]

you the one thats making the assumption that im favouring Japan

I like how you have to generalize in this here 'rebuttal' and are completely unable to pin any hypocrisy specifically on me personally.

Thats because as Bluewater said the whole thing has been debated in "greater detail" (my words)in other threads concerning the Phillipines position and I cant be bothered referring back to old research. Im tired and its late. I was'nt directing my suggestion of hypocrisy at you . It was more at the debates in previous threads.


What is there to say about it? Do you need to be educated on the fact that Ming and Qing are two different dynasties separated by hundreds of years, with significantly different geographical borders? And that it was during the Qing that Japan land-grabbed the DY islands? By that time Qing fishermen had been regularly plying the waters around the area. By that time, the Japanese government clearly recognized that DYT belonged to China. But I understand historical documents mean nothing to you, especially when you are not winning with them. :D

Not that article ... the one posted Les Adieux , or was that some disingenuity on your part (if theres such a word) to avoid a embarrassing revalation.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

What is disconcerting for the Chinese side though is their credibility would have nosedived with the uncommitted parties around the world. The revelation by one of its academics that China has never permitted any official research on historical documents as to to the validity of their claims is a complete contradiction on their claim to have vigoursly pursued historical research to justify their claims.

Can you quote the part of the article that has lead you to draw this conclusion?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Can you quote the part of the article that has lead you to draw this conclusion?

Just ignore him. His hatred for China and all things Chinese is well documented and goes beyond mere logic or reason. In his mind, anything good for China must be attacked and anything bad for China should be celebrated. It is no use trying to reason with him. Best to just put him on your ignore list. Every time I inadvertently read something he wrote from a quote box since I put him on my ignore list has only made me glad that I did not waste more of my time reading his posts.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

you the one thats making the assumption that im favouring Japan
Pretty safe assumption to make given your history on SDF. I know you're trying to sound all lofty and magnanimous by putting on the air of giving equal consideration, but let's drop the pretense, shall we? It doesn't suit you.

Not that article ... the one posted Les Adieux , or was that some disingenuity on your part (if theres such a word) to avoid a embarrassing revalation.
It's hard to know what you mean by "preceding article" if you don't specify further. Don't ludicrously attribute any malevolence to me when you are the one who failed to be specific about which article preceding which post you are referring to, and then try some ridiculous 'gotcha' tactic on me when I don't pick the one you were thinking of.

As for the article posted by Les Adieux, only you would think there is something "revelatory" about it. Perhaps you could be forgiven for having failed to consider that the monolithic nature of the Chinese side is a not unexpected consequence of the nature of tight state control. And someone like you could definitely be forgiven for having failed to consider that perhaps the monolithic nature of the Chinese side could actually be a testament to the strength of its case. In either case, historical documents can be scrutinized and debated by all sides, and myself and probably the rest of the world place far greater emphasis on what they say than you do. I guess you just go by the compass of your heart. Or something.
 

A.Man

Major
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Chinese Army Major General Luo Yuan's Input To The Incident

2013021807442125711300.jpg


中国军事科学学会副秘书长罗援少将。

罗 援

最近,日本恶人先告状,将“火控雷达照射事件”愈炒愈烈,这带来三个方面问题。

其一,这一事件反映了日本军政要员军事常识的匮乏。日本防卫大臣小野寺五典称“1月30日10时日本‘夕立’号护卫舰在东海公海海域遭中国护卫舰火控雷达瞄准,当时两舰相距3公里”。3公里意味着什么?这是可视距离,舰载火炮不用雷达指示目标,直射都可以打得着对方,中方何必要开启火控雷达?如果说雷达是为导弹指示目标的,那么,稍有军事常识的人都会知道,3公里是导弹射击的死角盲区,这么近的距离,导弹发射后,助推装置在1至2公里的距离内刚刚脱落,导弹正处加速阶段,导弹上的翼面和自导头尚未发挥作用,即便火控雷达照射了,导弹也无法有效寻的,怎能构成威胁,谁会干这么傻的事?日本政要即使造谣,也应该找一个专业点的人来说事。如果美国人也信这套谎言,那么在专业理论界将会贻笑大方。

其二,军机、军舰都这么近距离对峙了,我们的军舰还不进行警戒、警告,那就是失职。须知侦察、警戒雷达和火控雷达是两码事,前者要进行全方位、远距离、大面积的搜索;后者要在前者提供的概略目标的基础上,进行定向、定点的精确锁定。两者的雷达波长、波瓣都是不一样的,日本军方长期对中国进行电子侦察、情报搜集,对此应该心知肚明。再说,日本的军机、军舰在我舰艇编队附近进行抵近侦察,我们的军舰难道只能听之任之,束手待毙吗?如果连搜索、警戒雷达都不能开启,那不是等着挨打吗?须知日本刚刚扬言要对我进行警告射击,谁知道打过来的是实弹还是警告弹?我们不能不防。即便日本发射的只是警告弹,它好歹也是个物理威胁;而即使我们用搜索雷达进行照射,充其量也只是个光电警告。谁的危险性更大,明眼人一看便知。

其三,如果发生擦枪走火事件,责任到底在哪方?毫无疑问,肯定在日方。我们的舰艇编队在国际水域进行正常训练,日本凭什么要进行抵近侦察,又凭什么要对我们正常的航行进行干扰?而且这种干扰已经不是一次两次了,据不完全统计,日本飞机对我的抵近侦察,每年都在500多架次左右,对我的训练干扰更是家常便饭,日本的军舰经常在我编队航线上进行尾随跟踪,采取蛇形干扰,甚至纵向干扰,任何国家的军队都会把这种行为视为军事挑衅。日本军机还经常玩一些危险动作,最近它的F—15J战机距离我运—8巡逻机翼间距离只有5米,稍有差池就会机毁人亡。

谁规定只许日本挑衅,不许我们自卫?

应告诉日本,这次我们没用火控雷达照射你,是便宜了你,这次没照射,不等于我们以后永远不照射,只要你对我构成威胁,在适当的距离内(不会是日本编造的3公里死角内),我们就要对你进行警告、驱赶,再不听,我们就要用火控雷达直接锁定,你敢做出危险动作,我们坚决自卫,绝无商量的余地,战场上不是你死就是我活,被动就意味着挨打。

凭什么东海的游戏规则只能日本一家说了算,又要设防空识别区,又要打警告弹?日本要知道,设防空识别区不是日本人的专利,打警告弹也不是日本人的特权,我们也可设防空识别区,我们也可打警告弹。

在东海,我们要给日本人立规矩——远离中国的安全范围!

(作者为中国战略文化促进会常务副会长)

罗援,全国政协委员,中国军事科学学会常务理事兼副秘书长,中国战略文化促进会常务副会长兼秘书长,军事科学院世界军事研究部原副部长,少将,研究员,博士生导师。(资料来源:人民网)

(原标题:让日本人远离中国安全范围(望海楼)_NEW)

Auto Translation:

Major General Luo Yuan, deputy secretary general of the China Society of Military Science.

Luo Yuan

Recently, Japan wicked first to complain fried more intense, the fire control radar irradiation event, which brings the three aspects.

First, the incident reflects the lack of military knowledge of the Japanese military and political officials. Japanese Defense Minister Onodera Five Code "Japanese the 'eve legislation' frigate in international waters in the East China Sea at 10:00 on January 30th was a the Chinese frigate fire control radar targeting, then the two ships is three kilometers away. 3 km mean? This is a visual distance, shipborne artillery without radar indicates the target, direct can play with each other, China, why should open fire control radar? If the radar is the missile indication target, then the slightest military common sense would know, 3 km is the the dead blind spot of the missile firing, so close after the missile launch, boosting device within a distance of 1-2 km just fall off, the missile is at the acceleration phase, the wing surface missiles and homing head has not yet play a role, even Fire Control Radar irradiation, the missile also can not effectively find, how can pose a threat, Who will dry foolish things? Japanese politicians are even rumors, people should find a professional point for things. If the Americans believe set lies, then professional theorists will be laughable.

Second, military aircraft and warships are so close to a confrontation, our warships is not alert, warning, and that is dereliction of duty. Notified reconnaissance, surveillance radar and fire control radar is different, the former to be comprehensive, long-distance, large area search; latter to the former provides broad goals based on the orientation, lock designated accurate. Both radar wavelength, the lobe is not the same, the Japanese military to China for a long time electronic surveillance, intelligence gathering, and this should be well aware of. Say, the Japanese military aircraft, warships came close surveillance near my vessel formation, our warships Is that could be done, and wait to die? Search, surveillance radar can not open, it is not waiting for struck? Notified Japan has just threatened to be a warning shot for me, who knows the fight over live ammunition or warning bomb? We can not prevent. Even if Japan only fired warning bomb, whatever the outcome is a physical threat; And even if we were irradiated with search radar, at best, only a photoelectric warning. Who is the greater danger, a discerning eye to see at a glance.

Third, in case of an accidental discharge event, responsibility Where is the party? There is no doubt that, certainly in the Japanese side. Our vessel formation in the international waters of the normal training, why should be at or near the reconnaissance in Japan, and on what basis to interfere with the normal navigation? Such interference has not once or twice, according to incomplete statistics, the Japanese aircraft came close surveillance on me, every year more than 500 sorties about my training interfere with the order of the day, the Japanese warships often in my formation routes on shadowing, take the snake-like interference, even vertical interference in any country's army will such behavior as a military provocation. Japanese military aircraft also used to play some dangerous moves, the last of its F-15J fighters distance I transported a distance of only 5 meters between -8 patrol wing astray will machine ruin and death of people.

Who regulations only allowed Japan provocation, we are not allowed to self-defense?

This time we the useless fire control radar irradiation is cheap you, this irradiation does not mean that we are forever after irradiation, as long as you pose a threat to me, within a proper distance (not Japan should tell Japan the dead ends of fabricated 3 km), we have to you a warning, repel, do not listen, we will use the fire control radar locked directly, you dare to make dangerous moves, we resolutely self-defense, no room for negotiation on the battlefield Either you die that I live, passive means beaten.

A final say what rules of the game in the East China Sea can only Japan, but also to set up air defense identification zone, and they want to make the warning bomb? Japan to set air defense identification zone than the Japanese patent fight warning bomb is not the privilege of the Japanese, we can also set up air defense identification zone, we can also play warning bomb.

In the East China Sea, we have to give the Japanese legislative rules - away from the security of China!

(The author is executive vice president of Strategic Culture Promotion Association)

Luo Yuan, a member of the CPPCC National Committee, China Society of Military Science, the executive director and Deputy Secretary-General, China Council for the Promotion of Strategic Culture Executive Vice President and Secretary General, former vice minister of the world's military research department of the Academy of Military Science, Major General, researchers, doctoral tutor. (Source: People's Daily)

(Original title: the Japanese away from the safe range (Wanghailou) _NEW)
 

A.Man

Major
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

CCTV-China MS Ships Patrol Within 3 NM Of Diaoyu Islands

[video]http://p.you.video.sina.com.cn/swf/quotePlayer20130131_V4_4_41_49.swf?autoPlay=0&actlogActive=1&as=1&vid=97384017&uid=1&tokenURL=http%3A%2F%2Fyou.video.sina.com.cn%2Fapi% 2FsinawebApi%2Foutplayrefer.php%2Fvid%3D97384017_1 _ZhrhRyc7WjPK%2Bl1lHz2stqkM7KQNt6nknynt71%2BiJw5cU Q%2BIborfO4kK6S7VCMtC8Gs%2Fs.swf&tHostName=[/video]
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Just ignore him. His hatred for China and all things Chinese is well documented and goes beyond mere logic or reason. In his mind, anything good for China must be attacked and anything bad for China should be celebrated. It is no use trying to reason with him. Best to just put him on your ignore list. Every time I inadvertently read something he wrote from a quote box since I put him on my ignore list has only made me glad that I did not waste more of my time reading his posts.

Be careful Wolf, while I am a newbie here and lack the cred to be giving advice to our senior members, I think you are getting yourself into the similar situation which resulted in a penalty. You are an asset to the forum so please dont let whatever you got against Bladerunner result in a suspension. I have read a considerable numberof his posts and while I do not agree with all of them, nothing he has said to date suggests to me that hes what you suggest him to be. Well not yet any way.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

on everybodys tolerance now going to make a off topic personal request to Blade.

Blade I am pretty sure I had the right person when I sent you several PM,s over the last fortnight which went unanswered.At the moment im not to sure whether you have received them or ignoring them by choiceIf I have got the wrong person please advise and I will continue my search.

Thankyou

B.I.B.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Can you quote the part of the article that has lead you to draw this conclusion?


VVThe frenetic pace of such research — and the official appetite for it — comes after decades of relative quiet in the field and has focused heavily on the two hottest debates: China’s quarrel with six other nations over a potentially oil-rich patch of the South China Sea and its tense feud with Japan over a small sprinkling of land called the Diaoyu Islands by the Chinese and the Senkaku Islands by the Japanese.

For some Chinese academics, the now-heavy demand for such work marks a near reversal of what they experienced early in their careers. In past decades, some say, territorial disputes were often considered too sensitive a topic because China was leery of disrupting its relations with its neighbors.

The government always emphasized the stability of bilateral relationships in the past, so doing public research on the Diaoyu Islands, for example, was not practical,” said one Chinese professor. “You couldn’t write a thesis on it. . . . There would be nowhere to publish such articles publicly

Even now, the topic remains sensitive. The professor spoke on the condition of anonymity because, he said, others have been punished in the past for speaking too openly on such matters.


So I reckon in the past its heresay, passed down from generation to generation.I can remember my grandfather talking about what was Chinas. So until its all done and dusted and proved beyond any doubt at all, it is not the trump card that some like to think it is.

Members here have been talking about the need to enhance its image amongst the uncommitted world But all they have to do is look at Chinas "Its my way or the highway approach in the SCS and they wont be so easily suckered. just look at New GuineaThe mainland Chinese are probably the latest of any large national immigrant group to enter the country but it didnt take them long to antagonize the indigenous people before encountering pogroms directed at them.
 
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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

What is disconcerting for the Chinese side though is their credibility would have nosedived with the uncommitted parties around the world. The revelation by one of its academics that China has never permitted any official research on historical documents as to to the validity of their claims is a complete contradiction on their claim to have vigoursly pursued historical research to justify their claims.
What a pathetic statement. China hasn't until recently allowed research into territorial disputes because of two utterly practical reasons: 1. it did not want to rock the boat and disturb relations with its neighbors, 2. even if it did, it did not possess the means to make something of it. Neither 1. nor 2. are now true. It is now less concerned with maintenance of pristine relationships with those of its neighbors with which it has a territorial dispute, and it possesses the means to make something of it. Thus, China has allowed "vigorous" historical research into its claims. What makes this utterly pathetic on your part is that you are trying to dishonestly twist this previous reluctance to do research into some kind of argument for the illegitimacy of its claims. This is just stupid. Historical documents exist whether or not you research them. Their accuracy or inaccuracy exists whether or not you research them. That China has recently revved up historical research on their claims has nothing to the legitimacy of China's territorial claims. China has never given up its claims to these territories. That little blurb about Chiang Kai Shek declining this or that island that you so gleefully love to parrot around here as a contradictory Chinese stance is nothing of the sort. What importance do you think the statements, actions or claims made by CKS have for the Chinese Communist Party and its current representation and governance of China? Nothing. Less than nothing. The Chinese civil war began long before WWII, and CKS and his Nationalist party has never been viewed by the CCP as the legitimate leadership of China. So as far as the CCP is concerned, CKS could have flapped his gums all he wanted about anything under the sun, it would not have mattered not a wit to them what he said.

So I reckon in the past its heresay, passed down from generation to generation.I can remember my grandfather talking about what was Chinas. So until its all done and dusted and proved beyond any doubt at all, it is not the trump card that some like to think it is.
I don't even know what in the world this is supposed to mean. Are you saying that historical documents are now heresay because your "grandfather" talked about China, and so whatever he allegedly said can serve to invalidate history? Seriously? Again, I didn't hear you being so critical of historical documents when you thought you had the upper hand with them. Back then it was "hey look at this Japanese historical document. Read em and weep!" Now it's "oh wait, umm.... let's not place too much emphasis on historical documents". ROFLMAO :D

And let's not be ludicrous here, it will only be "done and dusted and proved beyond any doubt at all" when you feel satisfied that Japan has made a successful case. As long as China looks like it has a successful case, you will never feel satisfied that the case is settled. That's just who you are.
 
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