Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

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kroko

Senior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Very unlikely and probably not even possible, if you don't want to show your best stuff you simply don't send in your best aircraft, it's not possible to "restrain" your fighter pilots

This was excercise in March 2011, if you see closely the serial numbers are actually covered with tape, not photoedit actually tapped over, the base is unknown, obviously the trust between the two institutions is there but for obvious reason they didnt want to release the info to the general public which is the "secretive" side of the PLAAF and probably the limit of China restraint


And China isn't even that secretive as you say, it's not 1960s PLAAF has also done excercises with the Turkish Air Force a NATO member so this kind of thinking has no place, if they are willing to send aircraft to Turkey why would they not trust PAF, so there's no reason

And asking a allie to withhold information while asking for proofs/guarantees is not only unprofessional but not a allied relationship in the first place I would not think PLAAF would think at this level

I agree with plawolf. Just because china sends planes to turkey and pakistan, doesnt mean that there wont be leaks. The serial numbers are not the problem, air tactics are. Remember that both countries are close to US (turkey is even a member of NATO), and even if they were not, theres always the possibility of leaks. China doesnt have a military alliance with anyone (no, china and pakistan are not military allies), and that means that they have to be careful when making exercices with other countries.

And yes, it is possible to "restrain pilots", using a set of ROE (rules of engagement). Thats how indian air force was able to beat USAF during exercices some years ago.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Very unlikely and probably not even possible, if you don't want to show your best stuff you simply don't send in your best aircraft, it's not possible to "restrain" your fighter pilots

This was excercise in March 2011, if you see closely the serial numbers are actually covered with tape, not photoedit actually tapped over, the base is unknown, obviously the trust between the two institutions is there but for obvious reason they didnt want to release the info to the general public which is the "secretive" side of the PLAAF and probably the limit of China restraint


And China isn't even that secretive as you say, it's not 1960s PLAAF has also done excercises with the Turkish Air Force a NATO member so this kind of thinking has no place, if they are willing to send aircraft to Turkey why would they not trust PAF, so there's no reason

And asking a allie to withhold information while asking for proofs/guarantees is not only unprofessional but not a allied relationship in the first place I would not think PLAAF would think at this level

Maybe someone can identify these Flankers but I would think they are J11A

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As I and Kroko already mentioned, it is perfectly possible to restrict pilots through ROE, and everyone does it to some extent in all exercises. If you cannot 'restrain' your pilots and they don't follow ROE and just does whatever they want, then you have a serious discipline problem.

Pilots able to swallow their pride and stick to orders even if that means they get beat by pilots/planes that they could have defeated had they cut loose is a sign of good discipline and professionalism. When you give your pilots strict orders, you want those orders followed, not for your pilots to 'misinterpret' them and go off hunting for glory and leaving critical areas/assets undefended.

As I stressed before, when the PLAAF participates in exchanges with other nations, especially NATO members or NATO allies, they are there mainly to learn and not to show off. I would have expected the PLAAF pilots to have been operating under extremely restricting ROEs when they were in Turkey, which might explain all the rumours of F4s getting the better of Su27s, as you would have to be extremely naive if you think for a moment that the PLAAF would allow the Turks to see any of their real moves, as anything the Turks learn will be shared with the Americans probably before the Chinese had left Turkish airspace.

I had seen those pictures before, I was just wondering if you had any actual details from those exercises.

Regarding those planes, well they are not J11s since they are all twin seaters, and J11BS' were not operationally deployed in 2011. The radome colour and HUD are also not the same as the J11BS. These are the Su27UKBs that China bought in the early 90s, and are hardly representative of the PLAAF's best fighters by any stretch of the imagination. When J10s and J11Bs show up in Pakistan, then you can say China is sending its top fighters and pilots.

The fact that all pictures I have seen of this excercise shows twin seat UKBs would strongly go against the suggestion that this was a true DACT exchange, as you would expect the PLAAF's complement to have comprised primarily of single seaters if that was the case.

It looks like this was more of a favour that the PLAAF decided to do for the PAF by sending in twin seat flankers so PAF pilots can get a good feel for how they handle and perform, and was more to help the PAF gauge how the IAF's MKIs might perform so they can develop and practice ways to fight them better rather than a Red Flag kind of exchange.

If that was the case, I would have expected the PLAAF pilots to mainly be instructors, so they can let the PAF guys have some stick time in the UKBs, and the exchange would mainly have been the PLAAF guys telling the PAF guys the limitations and weakness of the UKB, so if they faces off against Indian MKIs, the PAF guys would know what moves to avoid and what moves to make to put the MKIs at maximum disadvantage.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Why are we talking about fighter pilots in this thread for? It's frustrating to visit a thread only to find the discussion totally unrelated to thread's subject matter.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
washington post: " China digs in history to bolster isle claims"

BEIJING – Bitter maritime disputes between China and its neighbors have recently sent fighter jets scrambling, ignited violent protests and seen angry fishermen thrown in jail. But beneath all the bellicose rhetoric and threatening posture, China also has been waging a quiet campaign to bolster its territorial claims with ancient documents, academic research, maps and technical data.

The frenetic pace of such research — and the official appetite for it — comes after decades of relative quiet in the field and has focused heavily on the two hottest debates: China’s quarrel with six other nations over a potentially oil-rich patch of the South China Sea and its tense feud with Japan over a small sprinkling of land called the Diaoyu Islands by the Chinese and the Senkaku Islands by the Japanese.

For some Chinese academics, the now-heavy demand for such work marks a near reversal of what they experienced early in their careers. In past decades, some say, territorial disputes were often considered too sensitive a topic because China was leery of disrupting its relations with its neighbors.

“The government always emphasized the stability of bilateral relationships in the past, so doing public research on the Diaoyu Islands, for example, was not practical,” said one Chinese professor. “You couldn’t write a thesis on it. . . . There would be nowhere to publish such articles publicly.”

Even now, the topic remains sensitive. The professor spoke on the condition of anonymity because, he said, others have been punished in the past for speaking too openly on such matters.

But after an especially bitter dustup in 2010 between China and Japan, some Chinese scholars say, officials worried that the limited research had hurt China’s ability to make strong territorial claims, leaving it at a disadvantage with others, such as Japan, whose research community faced fewer constraints.

China’s attention to maps and other documents has intensified since, bringing spats of a new kind. The most recent began shortly after Christmas when Jiji Press reported what it claimed was a 1950 Chinese government document unearthed in China’s own archives calling the disputed islands by their Japanese name, implying that Beijing then regarded the islands as Japanese.

China’s embassy in Japan sidestepped the question of the document’s authenticity, saying that “even if the document exists, it won’t change the consistent position of the Chinese government.”

The embassy later dismissed the whole thing as a “Japanese attempt to support their wrong stance with an anonymous reference document.”But just weeks afterward, with little explanation, China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs shut down access to a large portion of its archival documents. A staffer at the archive said a week ago that the closure was “due to an upgrading of the system” but was unable to say when the work would be complete.

The bitter feud between China and Japan over a handful of rocky outcroppings may seem frivolous. But the fight carries great weight domestically for both countries — and huge implications for the United States.

If the military bluster and threats continue, U.S. diplomats and experts fear, it could lead to a military miscalculation and, in the worst case, an actual war that could draw in the United States, as a treaty-bound ally of Japan.

China’s increasingly aggressive posture on such claims is driven by a heady mixture of nationalism and strategic and economic interests. In a sign of just how important such claims have become, it has been widely reported in foreign media — though not confirmed by the government — that China’s new top leader, Xi Jinping, was personally put in charge of a task force responsible for the Diaoyu Islands claim in September, shortly before he was formally named to lead the ruling Communist Party.

That same month, tensions shot up after Japan announced it was buying the disputed islands from private Japanese owners for nearly $30 million. The move prompted riots in China. Trade suffered and diplomatic relations sputtered. Chinese and Japanese ships clashed on the seas, ramming and spraying each other with water cannons.

In the five months since, there has been greater official interest in China’s documentary backing for its territorial claims.

Several seminars and conferences were convened by government-affiliated think tanks. At one high-profile gathering in Shanghai, scholars concluded with a five-point consensus “to pool together our wisdom” and “to safeguard the sovereignty of the Diaoyu Islands and to oppose Japan’s violation.”

China’s State Council issued a 5,200-word white paper that laid out, point by exhaustive point, China’s case.

This fall, key historical documents, atlases and journals were assembled into an exhibit at China’s National Library. The library’s official statement included a sneering reference to the “sheer historical lie” of Japan’s claims, and the displays included records from imperial envoys stretching back to the Ming dynasty in the 1300s.

Maps — ancient and modern — have been a particular area of focus, with the government’s scientific and academic subsidiaries pumping out atlases, three-dimensional graphs and sketches of both disputed areas. New passports were outfitted with maps that include a dotted area that pointedly marks China’s claimed portions of the South China Sea. Even weather reports on state-run television have been amended to add forecasts for disputed areas.

Some international scholars, however, question how much credibility the recent burst of historical studies and technical data adds to China’s claims — especially given the fact that most think tanks and universities in China remain firmly in the grip of the Communist Party.

“If you look at the academic documents and arguments, especially on the Chinese side, the conclusions across the board look like one unified piece of concrete,” said Jean-Pierre Cabestan, head of government and international studies at Hong Kong Baptist University. “It’s concerning on an academic level to talk to people without a shred of doubt affecting their mind. It suggests a lack of ability to seriously evaluate the other side’s arguments. The whole truth is often more complicated.”

Chinese scholars defend their work as sound, even as some are trying to build credibility by relying less on Chinese documents and instead finding foreign materials to support China’s claims.

Most acknowledge that their research alone isn’t likely to solve territorial disputes. But they argue that it does provide a safe arena for conflict in an era of mounting tensions.

With the way the region is heating up, even academics working to support China’s claims wonder where the conflict might ultimately lead.

“I worry about the Sino-Japanese relationship,” said Zhou Yongsheng, an expert at China Foreign Affairs University in Beijing. “If (Japan) keeps following their current policies, the situation will deteriorate even worse. And China is very assertive to take countermeasures if necessary. It could get unpredictable and out of control.”
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I think this article gives us some insight for why the japanese think the disputed islands are theirs.


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Chinese document contradicts Beijing's claim to Senkakus
The Yomiuri Shimbun


A document from the early 17th century shows that China did not control the Senkaku Islands, contradicting Beijing's more recent claims and underlining Japan's insistence that they are an inherent part of this country's territory, according to a Japanese researcher.

During China's Ming dynasty, a provincial governor told a Japanese envoy that the ocean area under the dynasty's control ended with the Matsu Islands, now under Taiwan's administration, and the sea beyond that was free for any nation to navigate, said Nozomu Ishii, an associate professor of Nagasaki Junshin Catholic University.

The Matsu Islands are much closer to China than the Senkaku Islands, which China claims to have controlled since the Ming dynasty about 600 years ago.

At a press conference Monday, Ishii said the Chinese governor's statement appears in Huangming Shilu, the official annals of the Ming dynasty.

"This historical material proves that Japan's claim over Senkaku Islands is historically correct," he said.

Huangming Shilu comprise the records of the activities of Chinese emperors, addresses the throne and others. Transcriptions of the records can be found in the National Archives of Japan.

Ishii found a record in the annals dating from August 1617, which describes the arrest and interrogation of Akashi Doyu, a Japanese envoy from Nagasaki, by the head of the Chinese coast guard. The description was in the form of an address to the throne.

According to the record, the governor met the envoy and mentioned the names of islands, including one on the eastern edge of the Matsu Islands, about 40 kilometers off the Chinese mainland, that was controlled by the Ming and said the ocean beyond the islands was free for China and any other nation to navigate. The Senkaku Islands, including Uotsurijima island, are about 330 kilometers from the Chinese coast.

However, China says the border of the Ryukyu kingdom, present-day Okinawa Prefecture, lay between Kumejima island, east of the Senkaku Islands, and Taishoto island, one of the Senkakus, so Uotsurijima island and the other islands belonged to Ming-dynasty China.

Ishii says the record he found proved the Ming controlled the ocean within 40 kilometers from the mainland and the Senkaku Islands belonged to no nation. The Japanese government says the islands were put under its jurisdiction in 1895 after confirming that no nation had claimed them.

Shigeyoshi Ozaki, emeritus professor of the University of Tsukuba and an expert in international law, said: "We know the Ming had effective control only of the coastal area from other historical sources. What is remarkable about this finding is that a Chinese official made a clear statement along these lines to a Japanese envoy. This proves the Senkaku Islands were not controlled by the Ming."
 

bluewater2012

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I think this article gives us some insight for why the japanese think the disputed islands are theirs.


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Chinese document contradicts Beijing's claim to Senkakus
The Yomiuri Shimbun


A document from the early 17th century shows that China did not control the Senkaku Islands, contradicting Beijing's more recent claims and underlining Japan's insistence that they are an inherent part of this country's territory, according to a Japanese researcher.

During China's Ming dynasty, a provincial governor told a Japanese envoy that the ocean area under the dynasty's control ended with the Matsu Islands, now under Taiwan's administration, and the sea beyond that was free for any nation to navigate, said Nozomu Ishii, an associate professor of Nagasaki Junshin Catholic University.

The Matsu Islands are much closer to China than the Senkaku Islands, which China claims to have controlled since the Ming dynasty about 600 years ago.

At a press conference Monday, Ishii said the Chinese governor's statement appears in Huangming Shilu, the official annals of the Ming dynasty.

"This historical material proves that Japan's claim over Senkaku Islands is historically correct," he said.

Huangming Shilu comprise the records of the activities of Chinese emperors, addresses the throne and others. Transcriptions of the records can be found in the National Archives of Japan.

Ishii found a record in the annals dating from August 1617, which describes the arrest and interrogation of Akashi Doyu, a Japanese envoy from Nagasaki, by the head of the Chinese coast guard. The description was in the form of an address to the throne.

According to the record, the governor met the envoy and mentioned the names of islands, including one on the eastern edge of the Matsu Islands, about 40 kilometers off the Chinese mainland, that was controlled by the Ming and said the ocean beyond the islands was free for China and any other nation to navigate. The Senkaku Islands, including Uotsurijima island, are about 330 kilometers from the Chinese coast.

However, China says the border of the Ryukyu kingdom, present-day Okinawa Prefecture, lay between Kumejima island, east of the Senkaku Islands, and Taishoto island, one of the Senkakus, so Uotsurijima island and the other islands belonged to Ming-dynasty China.

Ishii says the record he found proved the Ming controlled the ocean within 40 kilometers from the mainland and the Senkaku Islands belonged to no nation. The Japanese government says the islands were put under its jurisdiction in 1895 after confirming that no nation had claimed them.

Shigeyoshi Ozaki, emeritus professor of the University of Tsukuba and an expert in international law, said: "We know the Ming had effective control only of the coastal area from other historical sources. What is remarkable about this finding is that a Chinese official made a clear statement along these lines to a Japanese envoy. This proves the Senkaku Islands were not controlled by the Ming."

Not this again. Didn't we went through this some time ago from another separate thread regarding this. This article contradict your source that claimed no nation had claimed them prior to 1895.

The Inconvenient Truth Behind the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands
Diaoyu Island is recorded under Kavalan, Taiwan in Revised Gazetteer of Fujian Province (1871).

I’ve had a longstanding interest in the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands, the subject of a dangerous territorial dispute between Japan and China. The United States claims to be neutral but in effect is siding with Japan, and we could be drawn in if a war ever arose. Let me clear that I deplore the violence in the recent anti-Japan protests in China: the violence is reprehensible and makes China look like an irrational bully. China’s government should rein in this volatile nationalism rather than feed it. This is a dispute that both sides should refer to the International Court of Justice, rather than allow to boil over in the streets. That said, when I look at the underlying question of who has the best claim, I’m sympathetic to China’s position. I don’t think it is 100 percent clear, partly because China seemed to acquiesce to Japanese sovereignty between 1945 and 1970, but on balance I find the evidence for Chinese sovereignty quite compelling. The most interesting evidence is emerging from old Japanese government documents and suggests that Japan in effect stole the islands from China in 1895 as booty of war. This article by Han-Yi Shaw, a scholar from Taiwan, explores those documents. I invite any Japanese scholars to make the contrary legal case. – Nicholas Kristof

Japan’s recent purchase of the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands has predictably reignited tensions amongst China, Japan, and Taiwan. Three months ago, when Niwa Uichiro, the Japanese ambassador to China, warned that Japan’s purchase of the islands could spark an “extremely grave crisis” between China and Japan, Tokyo Governor Ishihara Shintaro slammed Niwa as an unqualified ambassador, who “needs to learn more about the history of his own country”.

Ambassador Niwa was forced to apologize for his remarks and was recently replaced. But what is most alarming amid these developments is that despite Japan’s democratic and pluralist society, rising nationalist sentiments are sidelining moderate views and preventing rational dialogue.

The Japanese government maintains that the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands are Japanese territory under international law and historical point of view and has repeatedly insisted that no dispute exists. Despite that the rest of the world sees a major dispute, the Japanese government continues to evade important historical facts behind its unlawful incorporation of the islands in 1895.

Specifically, the Japanese government asserts, “From 1885 on, our government conducted on-site surveys time and again, which confirmed that the islands were uninhabited and there were no signs of control by the Qing Empire.”

My research of over 40 official Meiji period documents unearthed from the Japanese National Archives, Diplomatic Records Office, and National Institute for Defense Studies Library clearly demonstrates that the Meiji government acknowledged Chinese ownership of the islands back in 1885.

Following the first on-site survey, in 1885, the Japanese foreign minister wrote, “Chinese newspapers have been reporting rumors of our intention of occupying islands belonging to China located next to Taiwan.… At this time, if we were to publicly place national markers, this must necessarily invite China’s suspicion.…”

In November 1885, the Okinawa governor confirmed “since this matter is not unrelated to China, if problems do arise I would be in grave repentance for my responsibility”.

“Surveys of the islands are incomplete” wrote the new Okinawa governor in January of 1892. He requested that a naval ship Kaimon be sent to survey the islands, but ultimately a combination of miscommunication and bad weather made it impossible for the survey to take place.
Letter dated May 12, 1894 affirming that the Meiji government did not repeatedly investigate the disputed islands.Japan Diplomatic Records Office.Letter dated May 12, 1894 affirming that the Meiji government did not repeatedly investigate the disputed islands.

“Ever since the islands were investigated by Okinawa police agencies back in 1885, there have been no subsequent field surveys conducted,” the Okinawa governor wrote in 1894.

After a number of Chinese defeats in the Sino-Japanese War, a report from Japan’s Home Ministry said “this matter involved negotiations with China… but the situation today is greatly different from back then.” The Meiji government, following a cabinet decision in early 1895, promptly incorporated the islands.

Negotiations with China never took place and this decision was passed during the Sino-Japanese War. It was never made public.

In his biography Koga Tatsushiro, the first Japanese citizen to lease the islands from the Meiji government, attributed Japan’s possession of the islands to “the gallant military victory of our Imperial forces.”

Collectively, these official documents leave no doubt that the Meiji government did not base its occupation of the islands following “on-site surveys time and again,” but instead annexed them as booty of war. This is the inconvenient truth that the Japanese government has conveniently evaded.

Japan asserts that neither Beijing nor Taipei objected to U.S. administration after WWII. That’s true, but what Japan does not mention is that neither Beijing nor Taipei were invited as signatories of the San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1951, from which the U.S. derived administrative rights.

When Japan annexed the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands in 1895, it detached them from Taiwan and placed them under Okinawa Prefecture. Moreover, the Japanese name “Senkaku Islands” itself was first introduced in 1900 by academic Kuroiwa Hisashi and adopted by the Japanese government thereafter. Half a century later when Japan returned Taiwan to China, both sides adopted the 1945 administrative arrangement of Taiwan, with the Chinese unaware that the uninhabited “Senkaku Islands” were in fact the former Diaoyu Islands. This explains the belated protest from Taipei and Beijing over U.S. administration of the islands after the war.
Report dated August 12, 1892 from navy commander affirming the islands were not fully investigated. Source: Library of The National Institute for Defense Studies.Report dated August 12, 1892 from navy commander affirming the islands were not fully investigated. Source: Library of The National Institute for Defense Studies.

The Japanese government frequently cites two documents as evidence that China did not consider the islands to be Chinese. The first is an official letter from a Chinese consul in Nagasaki dated May 20, 1920 that listed the islands as Japanese territory.

Neither Beijing nor Taipei dispute that the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands — along with the entire island of Taiwan — were formally under Japanese occupation at the time. However, per post-WW II arrangements, Japan was required to surrender territories obtained from aggression and revert them to their pre-1895 legal status.

The second piece evidence is a Chinese map from 1958 that excludes the Senkaku Islands from Chinese territory. But the Japanese government’s partial unveiling leaves out important information from the map’s colophon: “certain national boundaries are based on maps compiled prior to the Second Sino-Japanese War(1937-1945).”

Qing period (1644-1911) records substantiate Chinese ownership of the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands prior to 1895. Envoy documents indicate that the islands reside inside the “border that separates Chinese and foreign lands.” And according to Taiwan gazetteers, “Diaoyu Island accommodates ten or more large ships” under the jurisdiction of Kavalan, Taiwan.

The right to know is the bedrock of every democracy. The Japanese public deserves to know the other side of the story. It is the politicians who flame public sentiments under the name of national interests who pose the greatest risk, not the islands themselves.

Update: The author would like to include an updated image of the Qing era documents that recorded, “Diaoyutai Island accommodates ten or more large ships”, as mentioned in his blog post.
Record of Missions to Taiwan Waters (1722), Gazetteer of Kavalan County (1852), and Pictorial Treatise of Taiwan Proper (1872).National Palace Museum, Taipei, Taiwan.Record of Missions to Taiwan Waters (1722), Gazetteer of Kavalan County (1852), and Pictorial Treatise of Taiwan Proper (1872).

Han-Yi Shaw is a Research Fellow at the Research Center for International Legal Studies, National Chengchi University, in Taipei, Taiwan.

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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Not this again. Didn't we went through this some time ago from another separate thread regarding this. This article contradict your source that claimed no nation had claimed them prior to 1895.

A good rebuttal to the Japanese publication. However if you read my post, I never made any personal comments on who I thought the Islands belonged to. I thought it was a good idea to post a document showing the Japanese views as a response to comments made by Cabestan in the preceding post by "Les Adieux "where towards the end of the article, the author quotes Cabestan

".....If you look at the academic documents and arguments, especially on the Chinese side, the conclusions across the board look like one unified piece of concrete,” said Jean-Pierre Cabestan, head of government and international studies at Hong Kong Baptist University. “It’s concerning on an academic level to talk to people without a shred of doubt affecting their mind. It suggests a lack of ability to seriously evaluate the other side’s arguments. The whole truth is often more complicated.”

So you are more than welcome to have a look at the Japanese claim and tear it to pieces.



What is disconcerting for the Chinese side though is their credibility would have nosedived with the uncommitted parties around the world. The revelation by one of its academics that China has never permitted any official research on historical documents as to to the validity of their claims is a complete contradiction on their claim to have vigoursly pursued historical research to justify their claims.

In other words based on some vague hunch fom history lessons or something or rather that they were right, they were essentially making it up as they went along.

anyway IMO we should'nt be paying too much reliance on historical documents as each side can be selective as to what they are prepared to show.

P.S. just an after thought.and nothing to do with this current squabble. I vaguely remember producing a passage from an article in a much earlier thread where Chiang kai Shek as the president of China, when offered a group of islands by Roosevelt in the SCS, at a conference declined them , so shouldn't that morally be the last word on the matter.?
 
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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

A good rebuttal to the Japanese publication. However if you read my post, I never made any personal comments on who I thought the Islands belonged to.
You don't have to. Every last one of the rest of us already knows who you think the islands belong to.

So you are more than welcome to have a look at the Japanese claim and tear it to pieces.

anyway IMO we should'nt be paying too much reliance on historical documents as each side can be selective as to what they are prepared to show.
I find it extremely humorous that after citing a historical Japanese document that was subsequently torn to pieces, you come back with the sour grapes argument that we should not pay too much reliance on historical documents. :rolleyes:
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

[You don't have to. Every last one of the rest of us already knows who you think the islands belong to.

It may come as a surprise to you , but i really haven't made up my mind who they belong to and ive never been scared to speak my mind and if I felt they were Japans I would say so right at the start. What surprises me about this dispute is that China and Japan had agreed on a joint development of the area and now its all turned to sh-t and because of stupid piece of rock that couldn,t even been given away in the past so to speak.

I find it extremely humorous that after citing a historical Japanese document that was subsequently torn to pieces, you come back with the sour grapes argument that we should not pay too much reliance on historical documents. :rolleyes:

Thats right, remember Chiang and his declining of one of the islands. So if you based it solely on historical documents China would not be able to claim all the SCS islands



While you might find my attitude humourous?. The double standards forum members adopt is even more so. I speak of the case of the Phillipines here. While you forumnites refute the validity of some decisions because China had no representation.Why are the Hhillipinoes denied the same right to question refute. the boundaries of her territorial waters.After all she never had a say, as they were decided for her by the colonising powers Spain and the USA.

Meanwhile I notice you have very little to say about the preceding article whichy is the most important revelation.
 
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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

It may come as a surprise to you , but i really haven't made up my mind who they belong to and ive never been scared to speak my mind and if i felt they were Japans I would say so and wouldn,t give two sh-ts how you felt.
Nobody's waiting with baited breath for you to make any pronouncements here, just FYI. :)

Thats right, remember Chiang and his declining of one of the islands. So if you based it solely on historical documents China would not be able to claim all the SCS islands

While you might find my attitude humourous?. The double standards forum members adopt is even more so. I speak of the case of the Phillipines here. While you forumnites refute the validity of some decisions because China had no representation.Why are the Hhillipinoes denied the same right to question refute. the boundaries of her territorial waters.After all she never had a say, as they were decided for her by the colonising powers Spain and the USA.
I like how you have to generalize in this here 'rebuttal' and are completely unable to pin any hypocrisy specifically on me personally.

i notice you have very little to say about the preceding article.
What is there to say about it? Do you need to be educated on the fact that Ming and Qing are two different dynasties separated by hundreds of years, with significantly different geographical borders? And that it was during the Qing that Japan land-grabbed the DY islands? By that time Qing fishermen had been regularly plying the waters around the area. By that time, the Japanese government clearly recognized that DYT belonged to China. But I understand historical documents mean nothing to you, especially when you are not winning with them. :D
 
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