052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

andyhugfan said:

I think she'll get a new radar!

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To which one? I'm just wondering what benefit if her weapons suite remains the same? And I think it's far too much work to make her into an 052C.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

There is no doubt that JN can launch 2 x DDG in a year, the proof is the last 4 Type 052C units

With 1 launch in Nov 2010 and subsequently 1 every 6 months thereafter

Infact we seen 3 launches alone in 2012, thats C6, D1 and D2, but to be honest I would even say 4 launches in one year, that's from Dec 2011 to Dec 2012, it was C5, C6, D1 and D2

After seeing Type 054A numbers China will now do the number on DDG constriction, next few years Type 052D will be seen in many numbers

I recon China will have more than a dozen DDG in 2015, thats including the 6 x Type 052C

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asif iqbal said:

A correction that first picture would be C4 and C5, C1 and C2 being 170 and 171

C3 and C4 will be 150 and 151 (150 has been commissioned)

C5 and C6 will be 152 and 153, so the second picture might be C6 and D1

D1 and D2 will go to SSF as 172 and 173, not sure how the last picture can be D4 I would expect that to be under construction in the hall along with D3 so that might be D5, as also D1 and D2 are already launched

D3 onwards will go to NSF as 117-120

Never the less a nice fleet of DDG in the making!

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If someone would say 'The 3rd 052C will be commissioned in 2013 and there are no 052D commissioned by that time' back in '06-'07, No one would believe it. Look at where we are now...

I've read through the first 10 pages of this thread and done some research about the slow development and commissioning of the 052C and 052D.

My conclusions are:

- the 170 & 171 are both experimental and mature designs at the same time. They were built to function as experimental platforms for electronic systems, training and new tactics. Hence the long time between 171 and 150. After completion of tests and laying the path for future ships, they were confident enough to built more 052C's and designing a new one, the 052D.

- The 051C functioned as a competitor of the 052C. I think the Chinese were not sure which path they would choose in terms of radars and missiles. The 051C and 052C were pitted against each other. One has proven technology e.g. s-300 missiles and radar ( they literally put a s-300 radar on the two 051C's!) whilst the other has new technology that needs to be tested. The outcome is clear. The 052C and the 052D are preferred.

- The 052C(+) and 052D will contain lessons learned from the 170 & 171. They will be much improved designs, especially the 052D which will have AESA radars and hot-launched VLS in square form.

- The 051, 052, 051B, and the older versions of the sovremenny will be scrappped, phassed out or sold within the next decade. They won't be seen fit for the future in the PLAN. There roles will be taken over by 054A's and 052C & D's.

One must see the destroyer development as a gradual change from low-tech to high-tech. Although this road is much longer than the road the type 054A has walked, but the result is there. Modern and advanced destroyers are being built very fast to meet the demand of tomorrow.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

andyhugfan said:

- The 051, 052, 051B, and the older versions of the sovremenny will be scrapped, phased out or sold within the next decade. They won't be seen fit for the future in the PLAN. There roles will be taken over by 054A's and 052C & D's.

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I have little doubt that the 051 would be phased out, but considering PLAN's tendency to get as much use out of their ships as possible, I think we'd still see the others floating around in the next decade. The Chinese Navy still have many older ships to retire before getting to those.

For exporting old frigates at "friendship prices", we'd probably look at Jiangwei class frigates being refitted and sold to South & SE Asian states.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

adeptitus said:

I have little doubt that the 051 would be phased out, but considering PLAN's tendency to get as much use out of their ships as possible, I think we'd still see the others floating around in the next decade. The Chinese Navy still have many older ships to retire before getting to those.

For exporting old frigates at "friendship prices", we'd probably look at Jiangwei class frigates being refitted and sold to South & SE Asian states.

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51B 167 would be a good training ship, large displacement , good seakeeping, comprehensive sensor and weapon suite. Being only ship of the class, it can be heavily modified without complicating logistics. Would be a nice world tour training ship for navy cadets. or It can be used a experiential platform to test out new weapon system. (Unlike the test ships, 167 can be throw in a live exercise and be used in a realistic way. Thus allowing PLAN to learn tactics for the new weapon system before or during build out of new platforms.) The space where C-803 is and HQ -7 offer plenty of space for temporary weapon modules.

Giving how PLAN can't even let 052 go and refitting them for patrol duties; the original Sovremenny pair will probably get some sort of refit and get second life breathed into it. They probably will not be front line ships, but it's ship is still potent.

051's current patrol duties will probably get replaced by 056 and coast guard ship. They will be the only ships scrapped in this the decade. 052, 051B and Sovremenny will likely live to see the 2020s, and only be scrapped by late 2020s and early early 2030s. By then they will be about as old as the 051s being scrapped now.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Instead of being scrapped or sold the older ships can also be disarmed and transferred to one of the civilian maritime agencies. Assuming that's less costly than scrapping them. The civilian maritime agencies can all use more larger displacement ships. At least the Chinese designed ships, not the Sovs.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

PLAN Personnel Checking Out The Second 052D

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A.Man said:

PLAN Personnel Checking Out The Second 052D

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That's D1, D2 is to the right out of the picture.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

andyhugfan said:

- the 170 & 171 are both experimental and mature designs at the same time. They were built to function as experimental platforms for electronic systems, training and new tactics. Hence the long time between 171 and 150. After completion of tests and laying the path for future ships, they were confident enough to built more 052C's and designing a new one, the 052D.

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052B served as the prototype for the 052B/C platform (hull, engines, etc). 170 was the prototype of the 052C design, 171 is the first production model, which despite their similar look is very much different from 170. The reason of the production pause is entirely due to 2010 Shanghai Expo, I believe C4-C6 were actually ordered shortly after the completion of 171. 150 again became a prototype to test the C3-C6 platform due to the entirely domestic propulsion systems.

andyhugfan said:

- The 051C functioned as a competitor of the 052C. I think the Chinese were not sure which path they would choose in terms of radars and missiles. The 051C and 052C were pitted against each other. One has proven technology e.g. s-300 missiles and radar ( they literally put a s-300 radar on the two 051C's!) whilst the other has new technology that needs to be tested. The outcome is clear. The 052C and the 052D are preferred.

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051C is the insurance policy to 052C should the latter fail (i.e. 053K). Regarding the SAM you do realize 051C uses Rif-M, a dedicated naval SAM system much like HHQ9, right?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

adeptitus said:

I have little doubt that the 051 would be phased out, but considering PLAN's tendency to get as much use out of their ships as possible, I think we'd still see the others floating around in the next decade. The Chinese Navy still have many older ships to retire before getting to those.

For exporting old frigates at "friendship prices", we'd probably look at Jiangwei class frigates being refitted and sold to South & SE Asian states.

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True, even the 36 year old Luda were handed over to the coast gaurd, China will probably upgraded and overhaul the older DDG as newer ships join

The 2 x Type 051C pennants 115 and 116
1 x Type 051B 167
2 x Type 052B 168 and 169
And 2 x Type 052 112 and 113

These 7 DDG are all pretty new platforms and can be upgraded with newer systems to keep them as good surface combatants, China would not be reckless and just decommission these valuable ships anytime soon

Infact I think the key here is for China to keep these in tip top condition and show it can look after older ships while maintaining modern ships like the Type 052D, a good navy would keep them and that's exactly what China is doing and just to top things up they are even sending them for anti-piracy missions, that's perfect move in my opinion, there needs to be a balance

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

hmmwv said:

052B served as the prototype for the 052B/C platform (hull, engines, etc). 170 was the prototype of the 052C design, 171 is the first production model, which despite their similar look is very much different from 170. The reason of the production pause is entirely due to 2010 Shanghai Expo, I believe C4-C6 were actually ordered shortly after the completion of 171. 150 again became a prototype to test the C3-C6 platform due to the entirely domestic propulsion systems.


051C is the insurance policy to 052C should the latter fail (i.e. 053K). Regarding the SAM you do realize 051C uses Rif-M, a dedicated naval SAM system much like HHQ9, right?

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170 and 171 were built and launched at the same time, just like the two 052Bs were.


The above is a picture showing all four outfitting together in my , nine years ago.

I believe the insurance policy for the 051Cs had much more to do with engines and proplusion than anything else. the 051C took advantage of the Chinese ability at the time to produce their own, older engines for those two vessels, where as the 052Cs were the PLAN going in the Gas Turbine direction for their new, area defense vessels. If they could not produce or procure suffient or capable enough gas turbines, they could always have continued building the relatively capable 051Cs until they could.

Now it is clear that the 052C and now "D" will be the mainstays.

asif iqbal said:

The 2 x Type 051C pennants 115 and 116
1 x Type 051B 167
2 x Type 052B 168 and 169
And 2 x Type 052 112 and 113

These 7 DDG are all pretty new platforms and can be upgraded with newer systems to keep them as good surface combatants, China would not be reckless and just decommission these valuable ships anytime soon

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I owuld throw the four Sovs in there with them, meaning they have Eleven reltively modwern DDGs, all capable of some upgrades and fairly capable in their respective areas.

Then you add the six Lanzhou vessels (Type 052C) and then another six "D" that will be launched by 2015, and in 2015 you end up with:

2 Type 052
1 Type 051B
4 Sovs
2 Type 052B
2 Type 051C
6 Type 052C
6 Type 052 D

That's 23 modern and effective DDGs

On the guided-missile frigate side you end up with:

20 Type 054A
02 Type 054

Or 22 modern and capable FFGs.

I believe by 2015 there could be as many as 30 Type 056 OPVs too.

That becomes a very potent and effective surface force with 23 DDGs, 22 FFGs, and 30 OPVs. 75 major surface combatants in all. As large as the Japanese Navy and with just as many new vessels.

By 2020, the picture is even more advanced for the PLAN. With more Type 052Ds, probably a few Type 055 CGs, probably several Type 054B FFGs and more Type 056 OPVs. Heck, the PLAN may have over 100 modern, majopr surface combatants by 2020...and that does not take into consideration their growing SSK and SSN force, their Amphibious force, or their carriers.