Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Did not realize that you were referring to the 1970s. Anyway if that is so the Mk 46 has been around since 1966. Those old Soviet subs while great in numbers and high in speed with a great ability to dive. They did suffer from poor noise damping & limited sonar. Also the sheilding around the nuclear power plant was poor.
 

peperez

New Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Not today... New Russian nuclear submarine are not noisy like Soviet ones.

Cheers

Pepe
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
But even that, with all the losses the US incurs (which include several super carriers) does not end the "Carrier Age."

I agree with this, carrier age is COMING to us, not leaving. There is 101 ways to kill a modern soldier, soldier do not leave the battlefield because of it, they maneuver, to find ways to victory. Carrier as a military platform, was, is, and still will be, NOT invincible, it's combat maneuver get whatever its job, done.

Again, I strongly recommend the Sith Lord to change the title of this thread, reflecting the proficiency of this fourm than the other no-wanderer ones: We know what we are talking about.


Edit:

A name like: Discussion of modern carrier battle group.

So that not only we can talk about how to kill a carrier battle group, but also how to use one, even how to build one.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I agree with this, carrier age is COMING to us, not leaving. There is 101 ways to kill a modern soldier, soldier do not leave the battlefield because of it, they maneuver, to find ways to victory. Carrier as a military platform, was, is, and still will be, NOT invincible, it's combat maneuver get whatever its job, done.

Again, I strongly recommend the Sith Lord to change the title of this thread, reflecting the proficiency of this fourm than the other no-wanderer ones: We know what we are talking about.


Edit:

A name like: Discussion of modern carrier battle group.

So that not only we can talk about how to kill a carrier battle group, but also how to use one, even how to build one.

You guys are amazing, great idea Red Sword, I admit prior to joining this forum, I was very concerned about the future of the carriers ability to survive in the increasingly hostile environment, as everybody and his dog seems to be focused on neutralizing the carrier and its ability to project power.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Not today... New Russian nuclear submarine are not noisy like Soviet ones.

Cheers

Pepe

Yes, thanks to a guy named Walker, like I always say , bright boys technology, buy from the bright boys, or "borrow it from friends?
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Don't know the answer to the question, but this thread is old!

Yes, lots of cobwebs and dust, and a few dusty pigeons flapping about, but lets see if I can stir it up a bit in here.

In the PLAN CV thread people were/are talking about using the Varyag as a foil to any potential advocacy of the USN for our friends on the Pacific Rim, who might feel threated. It seems to me that if the American Pres gave an order tonight to sink any ones carrier, any where on the planet, even one of ours, that job would likely be done by morning and that vessel would be on the bottom, he is one of the few individuals with the where-withal to accomplish this mission. So the carriers usefullness would be lost if she is sunk!

What have I done? Any way lets try to keep this in the spirit of academia and not get tooooooo personal.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Missiles seem the most obvious weapon for a saturation attack, but we have little idea how effective the filters of missile defence will be. I bet on a lower than expected missile performance in warfare because they have the most complex technology integration to outsmart the much less sophisticated countermeasures, except for interceptor missiles. From the start we might find all navies underarmed and overdefended in a way - last time we had that situation, it was resolved by ramming in the
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Torpedoes run a path that offers them more resistance to countermeasures, a reason why submarines don't rely on saturation attacks to the same degree as surface ships. Current developments in torpedoes opt for supercavitation and range, partly dropping the old wire guidance that made it very hard to fool their algorithms. Naval mines are torpedoes in place. The problem with torpedoes is their still short range in comparison to surface detection capability, forcing ships under water or light torpedoes with even shorter range on flying assets.
If you get a torpedo platform in place (SSK are slow!) to have a carrier group or part of it within range, you can significantly reduce its capabilities by blowing part of the hulls away and flooding them. That reduces the targeting problem to an object with much reduced speed and a more proximate to calculate position. Much calculation has been done on missile saturation attacks, but I'm not sure about that gamble. It somehow always requires to shoot maximum missiles in one volley against a substantial opponent - all missiles - and after being effectively disarmed, you hope for the best.
There must be trick to enhance missile performance. Either the enemy doesn't detect them (as hostile) and countermeasures are mostly or totally not enacted or the enemy provides targeting assistance by signals he doesn't consider to conceal. Stealth can be achieved by stealthy construction and by jamming. Targeting assistance can be enhanced knowledge about enemy ship characteristics, resulting in much improved algorithms for targeting solutions that will be harder to fool. Knowing these characteristics requires to get close with measurement equipment. Espionage can try that any time or manned/unmanned flight can get as close as possible with a sensor array to find out.

But an effective mining of certain waters denies movement within a timeframe of availability, depending on the sophistication and defence of the field. Instead of sinking a carrier, just don't have it anywhere near where it can hurt you. The Falklands War showed that even this approach can lead to surprising solutions for the invasion fleet. Surprise might be the best summary of what will happen. A lot of great minds will devote their brain power to targeting and countermeasure problems and the outcome may be hard to predict, depending on sophistication and cunning. If explosives get near a carrier it's surprisingly easy to sink now because its length, the largest dimension, is 2-3 times that of a frigate and thus you only need 2-3 times more explosives to sink a 100,000 dwt ship than a 5,000 dwt ship. Strange world of the cube root!
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Missiles seem the most obvious weapon for a saturation attack, but we have little idea how effective the filters of missile defence will be. I bet on a lower than expected missile performance in warfare because they have the most complex technology integration to outsmart the much less sophisticated countermeasures, except for interceptor missiles. From the start we might find all navies underarmed and overdefended in a way - last time we had that situation, it was resolved by ramming in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Torpedoes run a path that offers them more resistance to countermeasures, a reason why submarines don't rely on saturation attacks to the same degree as surface ships. Current developments in torpedoes opt for supercavitation and range, partly dropping the old wire guidance that made it very hard to fool their algorithms. Naval mines are torpedoes in place. The problem with torpedoes is their still short range in comparison to surface detection capability, forcing ships under water or light torpedoes with even shorter range on flying assets.
If you get a torpedo platform in place (SSK are slow!) to have a carrier group or part of it within range, you can significantly reduce its capabilities by blowing part of the hulls away and flooding them. That reduces the targeting problem to an object with much reduced speed and a more proximate to calculate position. Much calculation has been done on missile saturation attacks, but I'm not sure about that gamble. It somehow always requires to shoot maximum missiles in one volley against a substantial opponent - all missiles - and after being effectively disarmed, you hope for the best.
There must be trick to enhance missile performance. Either the enemy doesn't detect them (as hostile) and countermeasures are mostly or totally not enacted or the enemy provides targeting assistance by signals he doesn't consider to conceal. Stealth can be achieved by stealthy construction and by jamming. Targeting assistance can be enhanced knowledge about enemy ship characteristics, resulting in much improved algorithms for targeting solutions that will be harder to fool. Knowing these characteristics requires to get close with measurement equipment. Espionage can try that any time or manned/unmanned flight can get as close as possible with a sensor array to find out.

But an effective mining of certain waters denies movement within a timeframe of availability, depending on the sophistication and defence of the field. Instead of sinking a carrier, just don't have it anywhere near where it can hurt you. The Falklands War showed that even this approach can lead to surprising solutions for the invasion fleet. Surprise might be the best summary of what will happen. A lot of great minds will devote their brain power to targeting and countermeasure problems and the outcome may be hard to predict, depending on sophistication and cunning. If explosives get near a carrier it's surprisingly easy to sink now because its length, the largest dimension, is 2-3 times that of a frigate and thus you only need 2-3 times more explosives to sink a 100,000 dwt ship than a 5,000 dwt ship. Strange world of the cube root!

Come on Kurt, enough shotgun approach, lets get real here, the old wire guided MK 48 is still a very potent weapon, so lets stick to real world weapons, not something hypothetical.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Ramming is the most reliable option to make contact, best combined with spar torpedoes.

19th_century_Spar_torpedo_boat.jpg

I tried to make an exhaustive approach to the problem. I do that possibly too often and brandish my bookworm-engineer pertubations and some new developments.

The guesswork about measurement effects on algorithms is an attempt to understand the strange reports about Gabriel missile effectiveness in the battles of Latakia and Baltim. The Israeli defense is right according to models, but extremely well adapted. The effect of the Israeli counterstrike with the Gabriel after stomaching the enemy onslaught is unbelieveable, it's like they have been shooting merchantmen without any defenses. The targeting problem was rather due to small size.
The Syrians and Egyptians played 100% by the book of current modeling on naval missile combat, the Israeli answer was "What book? What models? We can't read? These look like small disarmed fishing boats to target." If anyone under current conditions would try to re-run Syria or Egypt against Israel, the Israeli side for some strange reason would devastate the mightiest opponent. Israel has something new up their sleeve that makes the current works on salvo missile combat as relevant as ramming with spar torpedoes and this trick can kill carrier groups with attackers of insignificant size because you need to transport very little explosives to the target!

My personal guess is that the Indian emphasize on returning missiles is right, as well as the Indian emphasis on integrating one of these large returning missiles with multiple homing warheads. Such a construction has range and can deploy a multi-spectral sensor array that defeats the current countermeasure level and raises the required complexity of successful countermeasures to a level unaffordable for most navies, especially on small ships. In the current missile defense calculations these small boats are as much target as a full blown warship of frigate to destroyer size, creating a jeune école paradise that doesn't feel sustainable under duress to me.
 
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