Has China already over-taken Russia in some sections of Military Avaiation ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

latenlazy

Brigadier
India leading in software i.e far ahead of China, is an anecdote Mig-29, but not necessarily true, in fact India is facing pressure from China's IT sourcing too.

There are so many Indian doctors as there are so many Indian programmers, should i say India is a world leader in medicine too, far ahead from China? :D
But India has a very strong IT sector nevertheless

Brazil is indeed moving fast too, like Embraer with the KC-390 and Super Tucano, but to say the BRICs are overall on par is not true, even more if we are speaking of military/civil aviation, India and Brazil are nowhere at the level of China. India's last hope is MMRCA ToT, if they still manage to screw this up, their indigenous growth will be seriously stunted.

and Sukhoi Superjet 100, it's modern, it's good, and it's selling
but Soviet era, it's child play, and that is Russia level now? i don't think promoting the Sukhoi Superjet is a good example of Russia's progress, rather a sign of stagnation, and just like the Comac C919 all the innards are made by American and Europeans

the advantages Russia has now is leftover from Soviet era prowess, if Russia can not get out of the stagnation and innovate, there will be nothing left

To add to this, I think the biggest tell is each country's R&D spending.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

jatt

Junior Member
I thought i'd share this information, its something even if its a little.
FGFA.jpg

The proposed FGFA will have air combat superiority, high tactical capability, group action capability in the regions even with poor communication support. The aircraft will have advanced features like
 Increased Stealth - Low radar cross-section (RCS), Internal deployment of weaponry
 Supersonic cruise and supersonic maneuvering capability
 Data link and network centric warfare capability.

Technical Parameters

Length=22.6 m

Height=5.9 m

MTOW=34 Ton

Range=3880 km

Speed=2 Mach

Max Weapon Load=2.25 Ton (Int.) & 5.75 Ton (Ext)

Thrust Vectoring=With Jet Nozzle (±15 º)

Engine Thrust=2X1400 kgf







FGFA will be co-developed with Russians. Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB) has been selected as the Russian agency for this development project.
From HAL's official website
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
India leading in software i.e far ahead of China, is an anecdote Mig-29, but not necessarily true, in fact India is facing pressure from China's IT sourcing too.

There are so many Indian doctors as there are so many Indian programmers, should i say India is a world leader in medicine too, far ahead from China? :D
But India has a very strong IT sector nevertheless

Brazil is indeed moving fast too, like Embraer with the KC-390 and Super Tucano, but to say the BRICs are overall on par is not true, even more if we are speaking of military/civil aviation, India and Brazil are nowhere at the level of China. India's last hope is MMRCA ToT, if they still manage to screw this up, their indigenous growth will be seriously stunted.

and Sukhoi Superjet 100, it's modern, it's good, and it's selling
but Soviet era, it's child play, and that is Russia level now? i don't think promoting the Sukhoi Superjet is a good example of Russia's progress, rather a sign of stagnation, and just like the Comac C919 all the innards are made by American and Europeans

all the good stuffs Russia has now is leftover from Soviet era prowess, if Russia can not get out of the stagnation and innovate, there will be nothing left

Brazil has the third largest civil aircraft industry in the world, outstrippingf both Russia and China, and i will show how developed it is.

Brazil today is capable of designing aircraft and has and ample array of products, in fact i challenge you to tell me who buys ARJ-21 besides Chinese airliners?
Does air canada buy ARJ-21s?
[video=youtube;QNoxOc3Hkfs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNoxOc3Hkfs&feature=related[/video]
does LOT buy ARJ-21?
[video=youtube;ipeCJAizHuw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipeCJAizHuw&feature=related[/video]

Does air dolomiti buy ARJ-21?
[video=youtube;bImykg38UjE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bImykg38UjE&feature=related[/video]
Does JAL buy ARJ-21s
[video=youtube;cGThNE-y_hI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGThNE-y_hI&feature=related[/video]

Doe fuji airlines buy ARJ-21?
[video=youtube;2mXm7jCB-Bk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mXm7jCB-Bk&feature=related[/video]

Brazilian SAMs, ASTROS

[video=youtube;f7Hipv4zXQI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Hipv4zXQI&feature=player_embedded#![/video]
[video=youtube;2UHsFPALe1o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UHsFPALe1o&feature=related[/video]
Brazilian air to air missiles and air to surface missiles plus smart bombs
[video=youtube;7tYqwRnI_bo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tYqwRnI_bo[/video]
Brazilian electric car
[video=youtube;FwN_IAXcSMw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FwN_IAXcSMw[/video]
Brazilian agriculture machinery
[video=youtube;3yfitMIAvQ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3yfitMIAvQ4[/video]

Brazilian AAM
[video=youtube;6phwzzPj8pM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6phwzzPj8pM&feature=related[/video]
 
Last edited:

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Sukhoi has more non russian sales than ARJ-21 non chinese buyers.

[video=youtube;UkY686WqkpQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkY686WqkpQ[/video]

ARJ-21 has non chinese engine

but Sukhoi Super jet has Russian french engine and soon Russian only engine[video=youtube;dFzo8cEKq2c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFzo8cEKq2c&feature=related[/video]

same is MS-21
[video=youtube;rROGxglgSNY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rROGxglgSNY&feature=related[/video]
MS-21 will be powered by Russian PD-14 jet engine
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

latenlazy

Brigadier
Sukhoi has more non russian sales than ARJ-21 non chinese buyers.

[video=youtube;UkY686WqkpQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkY686WqkpQ[/video]

ARJ-21 has non chinese engine

but Sukhoi Super jet has Russian french engine and soon Russian only engine[video=youtube;dFzo8cEKq2c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFzo8cEKq2c&feature=related[/video]

same is MS-21
[video=youtube;rROGxglgSNY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rROGxglgSNY&feature=related[/video]
MS-21 will be powered by Russian PD-14 jet engine
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

You can make anecdotes all you want, but the numbers tell the story. Russia is not spending as much in R&D as China, India, and the developed world, which is not a good sign for future innovation and growth. Up until recently even their domestic aviation industry, the only high-tech industry they maintained any competitive advantage in, was dying. While it's nice to see Russia finally get off its behind and start worrying about their future position in the world economy, in the big picture they really have ceded a lot of ground and aren't doing nearly enough to get where they need to be.
 
Last edited:

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
You can make anecdotes all you want, but the numbers tell the story. Russia is not spending as much in R&D as China, India, and the developed world, which is not a good sign for future innovation and growth. Up until recently even their domestic aviation industry, the only high-tech industry they maintained any competitive advantage in, was dying. While it's nice to see Russia finally get off its behind and start worrying about their future position in the world economy, in the big picture they really have ceded a lot of ground and aren't doing nearly enough to get where they need to be.

Spending money does not mean intelligence, intelligence is free, and the real inventions are not by spending money, but by thinking new solutions, and the best Solutions are the cheapest and more efficient.

Ideas are done by the brain, not by dollars, dollars do not think, people think.

Russian engineering had a very difficult time from 1991 to the early part of the last decade, today`s Russia is a BRIC economy, but is the most likely economy to get a high stardard of living in the next decade and still will remain a powerful nation and Russia has one of the most advanced aerospace industries, and China buys Russian aerospace technology, Russia does not copy Chinese jets or engines.

Sukhoi superjet has more non Russian custmers than ARJ-21 non chinese customers[video=youtube;eiPNXWhF3RM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiPNXWhF3RM[/video]
 
Last edited:

latenlazy

Brigadier
Spending money does not mean intelligence, intelligence is free, and the real inventions are not by spending money, but by thinking new solutions, and the best Solutions are the cheapest and more efficient.

Ideas are done by the brain, not by dollars, dollars do not think, people think.

Russian engineering had a very difficult time from 1991 to the early part of the last decade, today`s Russia is a BRIC economy, but is the most likely economy to get a high stardard of living in the next decade and still will remain a powerful nation and Russia has one of the most advanced aerospace industries, and China buys Russian aerospace technology, Russia does not copy Chinese jets or engines.

Sukhoi superjet has more non Russian custmers than ARJ-21 non chinese customers[video=youtube;eiPNXWhF3RM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiPNXWhF3RM[/video]

Without money to implement new designs and do research, your knowledge capital is static. It's not as simple as having smart people, or even a good education system (both of which Russia has a lot of). Those smart people can't discover, learn, or do anything new if they don't have access to those funds to really test and explore ideas. A smart hobo is still just a smart hobo, not an innovator or nobel prize winner.

Before the collapse of the Soviet Union Russian aerospace was second only to the US, but a field and industry moves very far in 30 years, and those were 30 years that Russian R&D was almost static, which also had the unfortunate effect of bleeding a lot of their knowledge capital to competitors. China bought Russian aerospace, but by now it's increasingly clear this will not be the sustained trend. If it were, China would be buying PAK-FAs instead of testing the J-20.

That said, it's not like China is filled with stupid people either. While Russia has been stagnant China has found the momentum to make significant gains. Money enables smart people. Smart people enable progress. They've practically reached parity with Russia in terms of technology and design potential at this point. While they lag in a few things, like turbofans, not only are they moving quickly there, but are already ahead of Russia on critical things like electronics and material research. To make this clear I'm not tooting China's horn, keep in mind that China's lead in Russia is significant only in a comparison between the two. Both are still behind the US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea in electronics and materials (for some of them).

You can point to the Superjet all you want, but that's just an anecdote that doesn't change the broader picture. Let's put this in perspective. Even just 20 years ago Russia was still number two in the world and China was a nobody. Yet somehow we're talking about the Superjet, which started in 2000, and the ARJ-21, which started in 2002, in the same conversation. To further demonstrate this point, the ARJ-21 is China's first attempt at domestic aviation, while the Superjet draws on decades of experience. If these two are truly comparable examples this doesn't bode well for Russia. A 30 year old barely beating a 10 year old in a fight does not reflect well on the 30 year old.

Then of course, there's the C919, which seems to be a far morel indigenized design. It's not like China's stopping at the ARJ-21. The ARJ-21 were the diapers, and the C919 are the pull-ups. Sooner or later this baby is going to get potty trained.

Russia had their first 4th generation fighter design in the late 70s and China had their first in the late 90s but they both revealed their 5th generation designs within a year from each other. For a country that used to have the 2nd best aerospace industry in the world, something is horribly wrong with this picture. If 1) R&D funding wasn't so great, and 2) if Russia was doing so well, Sukhoi's competition would not be AVIC, but Boeing. There's a reason for why this happened, and unless you can point to a reason why these trends won't continue, they will continue.

This isn't just about where China and Russia are right now, but where they were 10, 20, 30 years ago, and where they will be 10, 20, and 30 years from now. Reality does not stand still.
 
Last edited:

Lion

Senior Member
Russia don't even have a supercomputer that compete in the top three.. How can it be technology advance than China? Super computer aid in design and simulation of 5th gen fighter and demonstrate the technology advancement of a country.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Without money to implement new designs and do research, your knowledge capital is static. It's not as simple as having smart people, or even a good education system (both of which Russia has a lot of). Those smart people can't discover, learn, or do anything new if they don't have access to those funds to really test and explore ideas. A smart hobo is still just a smart hobo, not an innovator or nobel prize winner.

Before the collapse of the Soviet Union Russian aerospace was second only to the US, but a field and industry moves very far in 30 years, and those were 30 years that Russian R&D was almost static, which also had the unfortunate effect of bleeding a lot of their knowledge capital to competitors. China bought Russian aerospace, but by now it's increasingly clear this will not be the sustained trend. If it were, China would be buying PAK-FAs instead of testing the J-20.

That said, it's not like China is filled with stupid people either. While Russia has been stagnant China has found the momentum to make significant gains. Money enables smart people. Smart people enable progress. They've practically reached parity with Russia in terms of technology and design potential at this point. While they lag in a few things, like turbofans, not only are they moving quickly there, but are already ahead of Russia on critical things like electronics and material research. To make this clear I'm not tooting China's horn, keep in mind that China's lead in Russia is significant only in a comparison between the two. Both are still behind the US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea in electronics and materials (for some of them).

You can point to the Superjet all you want, but that's just an anecdote that doesn't change the broader picture. Let's put this in perspective. Even just 20 years ago Russia was still number two in the world and China was a nobody. Yet somehow we're talking about the Superjet, which started in 2000, and the ARJ-21, which started in 2002, in the same conversation. To further demonstrate this point, the ARJ-21 is China's first attempt at domestic aviation, while the Superjet draws on decades of experience. If these two are truly comparable examples this doesn't bode well for Russia. A 30 year old barely beating a 10 year old in a fight does not reflect well on the 30 year old.

Then of course, there's the C919, which seems to be a far morel indigenized design. It's not like China's stopping at the ARJ-21. The ARJ-21 were the diapers, and the C919 are the pull-ups. Sooner or later this baby is going to get potty trained.

Russia had their first 4th generation fighter design in the late 70s and China had their first in the late 90s but they both revealed their 5th generation designs within a year from each other. For a country that used to have the 2nd best aerospace industry in the world, something is horribly wrong with this picture. If 1) R&D funding wasn't so great, and 2) if Russia was doing so well, Sukhoi's competition would not be AVIC, but Boeing. There's a reason for why this happened, and unless you can point to a reason why these trends won't continue, they will continue.

This isn't just about where China and Russia are right now, but where they were 10, 20, 30 years ago, and where they will be 10, 20, and 30 years from now. Reality does not stand still.

Russia still is ahead of China, engines are a proof, Does Sukhoi buy WS-10s for Su-35S?
Does kunlun is used by MiG-29?

PL-12 seeker based upon Russioan design

Z-11=AS-350 squirrel
J-11=Su-27
WS-9=Spey
A lot of Chinese technology is not indigenous, you can see it from cars to aircraft ARJ-21 in fact is based upon the DC-9

After nearly a decade of thinking, planning, proposals, and counter-proposals, and even another shot at collaborating with other Asian aspirants, China launched the ARJ-21 (Asian Regional Jet - 21st Century) project. This is the "component" phase, and at this point China is serving as re-designer (the jet is basically a shortened MD-80, or DC-9, with a new wing design from Russia), project manager, and system integrator

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So yeah Chinese research money can pay Russian scientists to develop a wing for them and Grafted into a DC-9

So you see money does not mean you are using your work force, it also means you can buy technology for you research and development
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top