Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Ian_PD said:

But the question is not about the radar, this can be replaced by another more capable as a customer request, like the Vixen 500E AESA radar, I´m asking about the physical integration of the missile in the J-7E(G) / JL-9 double-delta wing, which is the same, AFAIK.

Greetings from Perú.

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You have to note the cone size of JL-9 is small(maybe smaller than j-7E). If may not design to fit the desire radar. I don't know why so many people are obsess with J-7 series fighter despite they have the FC-1 available for them.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

for political reason,thales will never allow Vixen 500e to fitted in any Chinese make aircraft.first was fear of theft,second was US pressure.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Lion said:

You have to note the cone size of JL-9 is small(maybe smaller than j-7E). If may not design to fit the desire radar. I don't know why so many people are obsess with J-7 series fighter despite they have the FC-1 available for them.

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Well, I have seen a couple of pictures of the JL-9 nose without the cone and is not smaller than the J-7E one, as you say, is much bigger (around 400mm of diameter for the antenna), and its obviously designed to be equipped with a bigger radar antenna, and if not, why the need to redesign the nose if the original one was enough for its role of fighter-trainer?

And about my "obsession" with the J-7E, I only made a question, if you don't like it, then don't reply. Besides, about the FC-1, is still an unproven design and at least twice as expensive than the J-7E/JL-9, therefore, this made the JL-9 an atractive option for a country with a very-low defence budget and the need of a cheap multirole aircraft. That's why ask about the physical integration of the SD-10 BVR missile in the double-delta wing of the mentioned aircraft.

challenge said:

for political reason,thales will never allow Vixen 500e to fitted in any Chinese make aircraft.first was fear of theft,second was US pressure.

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About the Vixen 500, is just an option (a very atractive one) specifically designed to provide small nose (and light) aircraft with an state-of-the-art radar capable not only of BVR missile guidance, but also advanced A2G modes like ISAR. All this made the JL-9 a very interesting topic.

Greetings from Perú

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Ian_PD said:

why the need to redesign the nose if the original one was enough for its role of fighter-trainer?

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No, it was not adequate as a fighter-trainer. The take-off and landing speed is way too high (partially addressed by double delta wings), the visibility (especially the rear seat) is bad.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Ian_PD said:

Well, I have seen a couple of pictures of the JL-9 nose without the cone and is not smaller than the J-7E one, as you say, is much bigger (around 400mm of diameter for the antenna), and its obviously designed to be equipped with a bigger radar antenna, and if not, why the need to redesign the nose if the original one was enough for its role of fighter-trainer?

And about my "obsession" with the J-7E, I only made a question, if you don't like it, then don't reply. Besides, about the FC-1, is still an unproven design and at least twice as expensive than the J-7E/JL-9, therefore, this made the JL-9 an atractive option for a country with a very-low defence budget and the need of a cheap multirole aircraft. That's why ask about the physical integration of the SD-10 BVR missile in the double-delta wing of the mentioned aircraft.



About the Vixen 500, is just an option (a very atractive one) specifically designed to provide small nose (and light) aircraft with an state-of-the-art radar capable not only of BVR missile guidance, but also advanced A2G modes like ISAR. All this made the JL-9 a very interesting topic.

Greetings from Perú

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Does all peruvian always sound so rude in forum? You make a lousy suggestion and this is a open forum. I have my rights to reply, right? Precisely, the more i dont like it . The more i want to make comment. Let the reAder decide.

I think you have confuse L-15 with JL-9. So far i have not know JL-9 has a redesign nose before. Not only the few bad point of JL-9 as fighter, it also lack the range to carry out decent interception. As in what way jL-9 has proven it's design. FC-1 has in many way prven to be anything superior to JL-9 and the runaway price is only usd20 million. JL-9 could only save that little and has many features lacking of FC-1.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Lion said:

Does all peruvian always sound so rude in forum? You make a lousy suggestion and this is a open forum. I have my rights to reply, right? Precisely, the more i dont like it . The more i want to make comment. Let the reAder decide.

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I'm rude? First, you are saying than I'm "obsessed" with the J-7 just because I made a question, and now are you saying than all peruvians are "rude" in forums just because you don't like my answer? Sir, I don't know who you are to judge and accuse me with just my nationality and a couple of lines, and after your two replies I also can say than you are rude with me, but I simply choose ignore it from now. Let the reader decide who have a bad attitude in this issue.

I think you have confuse L-15 with JL-9. So far i have not know JL-9 has a redesign nose before.

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I'm not confused, the JL-9 have a redesigned nose to replace the original JJ-7 (MiG-21U) cockpit, and this new nose have more diameter and volume than the original, which allow the use of a bigger radar, so what's the problem?

I have the picture, but I can't post it (just this post and I can do it).

Not only the few bad point of JL-9 as fighter, it also lack the range to carry out decent interception.

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For an small country, its range can be sufficient, besides, AFAIK the JL-9 can be equipped with an IFRP, which eliminates the range problem.

As in what way jL-9 has proven it's design

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Its design is based in the succesful J-7E/G aircraft, an even use the same wing, engine and lot of its components, that's why the PLAAF chose it over the L-15, which is superior yes, but more expensive and complex to manufacturate. Its a low-risk alternative to acquire a modern but unproven (and costly) aircraft.

FC-1 has in many way prven to be anything superior to JL-9 and the runaway price is only usd20 million. JL-9 could only save that little and has many features lacking of FC-1.

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Of course it is superior, I never denied it, but not all the countries can afford US$ 20 millions, and if I remember well, that price is just a supposition, not a fact. And I don't think than a JL-9 can be much more costly than a brand-new J-7G.

Greetings from Perú

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Ian_PD said:

I'm rude? First, you are saying than I'm "obsessed" with the J-7 just because I made a question, and now are you saying than all peruvians are "rude" in forums just because you don't like my answer? Sir, I don't know who you are to judge and accuse me with just my nationality and a couple of lines, and after your two replies I also can say than you are rude with me, but I simply choose ignore it from now. Let the reader decide who have a bad attitude in this issue.


I'm not confused, the JL-9 have a redesigned nose to replace the original JJ-7 (MiG-21U) cockpit, and this new nose have more diameter and volume than the original, which allow the use of a bigger radar, so what's the problem?

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I just use the word obsess and you feel offended? I don't know what is your thinking. But the way you reply is sure damm rude. " if you don't like it, don't reply! ".. That is rude reply, understand!

JL-9 redesign its nose is mainly for the increase of it's air intake using side intake rather than increase of it's nose size.

J-7E is a single seat fighter. By having a second seat for JL-9, it will take away the precious space for fuel tank. Making it super short leg and suitable for training role only. There is no mention JL-9 nose is bigger than it's j-7E.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

C'mon guys, twas a misunderstanding at first which is sprialling out of control -- I don't think lion was insinuating that ian was obsessing over JL-9 when there was JF-17, just people in general seemed to be interested in other low cost fighters from china while the JF-17 was readily available?

I'm personally of the belief that JL-9 could definitely be modified to use BVRAAMs. India's Mig-21 bisons can use R-77(?) at any rate, and JL-9 should be able to allow similar modifications. Whether such an aircraft will be effective is another matter altogether.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Bltizo said:

C'mon guys, twas a misunderstanding at first which is sprialling out of control -- I don't think lion was insinuating that ian was obsessing over JL-9 when there was JF-17, just people in general seemed to be interested in other low cost fighters from china while the JF-17 was readily available?

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Of course, I'm taking all of this as a Lion's misunderstanding, and that's all (and I'm not rude, I'm direct and clear), but I don't tolerate any negative association to my nationality anymore, or its that allowed here? And the reason of my question is precisely the search of (cheap and available) JF-17 alternatives, that's all.

I'm personally of the belief that JL-9 could definitely be modified to use BVRAAMs. India's Mig-21 bisons can use R-77(?) at any rate, and JL-9 should be able to allow similar modifications. Whether such an aircraft will be effective is another matter altogether.

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I don't see why not, the Chilean F-5 Tiger III is also a short ranged light fighter and is quite effective in its role, its even BVR capable (also the Brazilian F-5Br), the J-7E (with a "solid nose") or the JL-9 are both aircraft of the same class than the F-5. An JL-9 armed with Python 5/Derby, R-73/RVV-AE or PL-9C/SD-10A could be a real challenge, its short ranged yes but its low RCS made it hard to detect and with the proper tactics can be a deadly opponent, I think.

Greetings from Perú.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Lion said:

...
JL-9 redesign its nose is mainly for the increase of it's air intake using side intake rather than increase of it's nose size.

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Yes, but the second is also a result of the aircraft redesign.

J-7E is a single seat fighter. By having a second seat for JL-9, it will take away the precious space for fuel tank. Making it super short leg and suitable for training role only.

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The question is, how much fuel capacity is lost with the addition of second seat? Because as far I know, the J-7E main fuel tanks are in the wings, in fact the J-7E design increases the fuel capacity respect the previous versions with the addition of the double delta wings, so, your supposition is quite weak. Therefore, the aircraft can be equipped with an in-flight refuelling probe, do you remember? And also, did you noticed than both seats are slightly moved forward thanks to new nose?

There is no mention JL-9 nose is bigger than it's j-7E.

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Taking as a reference the technician working behind the nose in the background of the picture, is possible estimate the diameter of the nose, which is -again- around 400mm. Its just a little use of descriptive geometry.

Greetings from Perú.