Should China get su-35bm

uhh lets see, ppl being idiots!

I really dont think just because Russia has less money = Russian planes suck

THAT is NOT LAW

I say like 120 ish, if ma regiment is 24 in this case, 5 is excellent, since the EF-2000, Raptor and the MKI has been mentioned...

50 Raptor <- 120 Su-35BM
140 MKI =? 120 Su-35BM

uhh and how much Tyhoons does Europe have o.0?

Just because 2 Raptors can beat 7 Eagles, that doesnt mean 5 Raptors can beat 12 35BMs, why? HMS and TVC is equal on both sides, unless the Su-35BM includes 3-D TVC, plus the it carry 4 extra missiles, giving it extra chance to nail the raptor than vice-versa

IF I remember correctly... MKI has engine problems, if the Su-35BM has THAT, China of coursely wont but it, itz Russia's problem... MKI seems to have near the same capability as the Su-35BM, except the engines on the 35 is better, and it holds 6? missiles. (I think im wrong on this)

well anyways, like the Raptor, the planes loses their TVC and HMS advantage, so it will end up as the plane with flexiblity, good pilot, and most missiles

Chairman Hu said:

uhh lets see, ppl being idiots!

I really dont think just because Russia has less money = Russian planes suck

THAT is NOT LAW

I say like 120 ish, if ma regiment is 24 in this case, 5 is excellent, since the EF-2000, Raptor and the MKI has been mentioned...

50 Raptor <- 120 Su-35BM
140 MKI =? 120 Su-35BM

uhh and how much Tyhoons does Europe have o.0?

Just because 2 Raptors can beat 7 Eagles, that doesnt mean 5 Raptors can beat 12 35BMs, why? HMS and TVC is equal on both sides, unless the Su-35BM includes 3-D TVC, plus the it carry 4 extra missiles, giving it extra chance to nail the raptor than vice-versa

IF I remember correctly... MKI has engine problems, if the Su-35BM has THAT, China of coursely wont but it, itz Russia's problem... MKI seems to have near the same capability as the Su-35BM, except the engines on the 35 is better, and it holds 6? missiles. (I think im wrong on this)

well anyways, like the Raptor, the planes loses their TVC and HMS advantage, so it will end up as the plane with flexiblity, good pilot, and most missiles

Click to expand...

The radar and missile selection on bm is also better, but it does not canard. Can 5 raptors beat 12 bms? I personally think so. The reason is just that bm would never detect raptor. Whereas the raptor would be able to easily lock on bm.

Let's compare EF to BM:
1. engine:
EJ-200:
important stats are: thrust: 90kN and T/W ratio: 10.1 (note, this is T/W ratio for a 5th generation fighter). TVC has yet been added, but a 2-D TVC will probably be added in the future. It also allows for supercruise without using afterburners.

AL-41F1: thrust mentionned to be at least 140kN, probably up to 150kN. Let's say 150kN, that would be 1.2 times the thrust of AL-31F using probably the same size. So, the T/W ratio will be up from 7.1 to 8.5. It will probably be equipped with 3-D TVC.

I would say the huge gap in T/W ratio would make EF-200 the better one.

2. RCS
Not sure about this one. I do know that EF-2000 has some stealth features, so its RCS is probably smaller than 1. It also helps that it is a much smaller plane than bm.
As for bm, the word is that some stealth feature will probably be on there compared to earlier versions of the flanker, so it will probably be less than 10, but I doubt it will be as small as EF-2000.

3. AAM
We can argue all day about AMRAAM vs AA-12 and ASRAAM vs AA-11. I'd say AMRAAM is better than AA-12. The short ranged AAM, I'm not sure. In the future, it will likely be the Meteor vs R-77M1, I'd take Meteor.

4. Avionics.
EF-2000 has HOTAS, DVI, 3 MFHDD, HMSS, HUD,
bm probably has similar systems. Although, I'd say the processor on EF is probably better, since the Russian electronics industry is pretty weak.

As for radar, EF-2000 currently uses Captor PD radar and will likely use AMSAR in the future. bm will probably use Bars until Irbis or Zhuk-Mfe becomes available.

In general, I think EF-2000 just kills bm due to its superior engine with much better T/W ratio and supercruise capability.

tphuang said:

The radar and missile selection on bm is also better, but it does not canard. Can 5 raptors beat 12 bms? I personally think so. The reason is just that bm would never detect raptor. Whereas the raptor would be able to easily lock on bm.

Let's compare EF to BM:
1. engine:
EJ-200:

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important stats are: thrust: 90kN and T/W ratio: 10.1 (note, this is T/W ratio for a 5th generation fighter). TVC has yet been added, but a 2-D TVC will probably be added in the future. It also allows for supercruise without using afterburners.

AL-41F1: thrust mentionned to be at least 140kN, probably up to 150kN. Let's say 150kN, that would be 1.2 times the thrust of AL-31F using probably the same size. So, the T/W ratio will be up from 7.1 to 8.5. It will probably be equipped with 3-D TVC.

I would say the huge gap in T/W ratio would make EF-200 the better one.

2. RCS
Not sure about this one. I do know that EF-2000 has some stealth features, so its RCS is probably smaller than 1. It also helps that it is a much smaller plane than bm.
As for bm, the word is that some stealth feature will probably be on there compared to earlier versions of the flanker, so it will probably be less than 10, but I doubt it will be as small as EF-2000.

3. AAM
We can argue all day about AMRAAM vs AA-12 and ASRAAM vs AA-11. I'd say AMRAAM is better than AA-12. The short ranged AAM, I'm not sure. In the future, it will likely be the Meteor vs R-77M1, I'd take Meteor.

4. Avionics.
EF-2000 has HOTAS, DVI, 3 MFHDD, HMSS, HUD,
bm probably has similar systems. Although, I'd say the processor on EF is probably better, since the Russian electronics industry is pretty weak.

As for radar, EF-2000 currently uses Captor PD radar and will likely use AMSAR in the future. bm will probably use Bars until Irbis or Zhuk-Mfe becomes available.

In general, I think EF-2000 just kills bm due to its superior engine with much better T/W ratio and supercruise capability.

Click to expand...

very nice comparison. in a study by the british, the eurofighter scored a 4:1 kill ration on the su-35, which may be a bit over blown, but still fairly accurate. but the su-does not represent russias best of fighter tech, its simply the best russia can field. if u compare a eurofighter to a 1.44, the eurofighter would lose.

i dont see china fighting europe in the near future, so best concentrate on the f-16s of taiwan and mkis of india. thats when the bm comes in.

Some interesting info on Eurofighter


This article claims that it has an RCS of 1 m^2. Just for reference, F-16 has RCS of 1.5 m^2, F-15 has RCS of 25 m^2 (maybe less?), Mig-21 has RCS of 3 m^2, Mig-29 has RCS of 5 m^2 and flankers has RCS of 8 m^2 (even this sounds a little low to me). F-22 has RCS of 0.05 m^2 according to this article.

Interesting bit on captor:
The Captor is a multimode radar, working in the I/J-band frequency range (8-12 GHz). It has a mechanically steered, grooved, flat (planar) metal antenna, with a diameter of 70 cm. Four electrical servos are used for quick antenna movements horizontally and vertically. The selection of a mechanical scan over a passive electronically scanned antenna was made, because it was assessed that such a solution was proven, and an advanced mechanically scanned antenna could offer better performance than an early electronically scanned antenna. It is now expected that, in the future, the radar will receive an active electronically scanning array (AESA).

The 193-kg Captor is a modular design with 61 shop-replaceable units (SPUs) and six line-replaceable units (LRUs). The LRUs are the two receivers, two transmitters, the antenna, and the processor. The radar processor can perform three-billion operations per second and works with the use of ADA software compatible with MIL-STD 2167A. Three separate data-processing channels are used to enable the radar to perform various modes simultaneously. The radar can observe 60 degrees to the left and right horizontally (some sources claim 70 degrees), and the radar range is at least 160 km for targets with an RCS of 5 sq m. Large targets, such as transport aircraft, can be detected at distances of up to 300 km. The radar has several air-to-air modes in which high-, medium-, and low-pulse-repetition-frequency regimes are used. The available range of pulse-repetition-frequencies (PRFs) is from 1 to 20 KHz. Among the air-to-air modes are range-while-scan (RWS), track-while-scan (TWS), and velocity search (VS). All of the modes are used for BVR engagement with the use of AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles or, in the future, with the use of Meteors. In track-while-scan mode, 20 targets can be simultaneously tracked, and up to six (some sources says eight) can be simultaneously engaged. Range-while-scan is used for initial target detection, with the radar emitting at low PRF and high power. Velocity scan is used for prioritization of the targets detected, and the radar switches to medium PRF. Track-while-scan is the basic mode for air combat and engagement of enemy aircraft. Also, a single-target-track mode is available for engagement of a remote target at the edge of the missile's range. Additionally, the radar has a raid-assessment function that distinguishes individual targets within a group of targets, along with a non-cooperative recognition mode that evaluates target characteristics (counting engine-compressor blades, RCS measurement, etc.) to identify a type of aircraft. The Captor radar also has look-down/shoot-down capabilities. A unique radar feature is the ability to present returns on two multifunction displays in the cockpit, in the vertical and horizontal view, giving the pilot a three-dimensional situational picture.

The MIDS is also extensively used for BVR engagement. It enables the exchange of information between eight Typhoons in formation and with an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, as well as with a ground-based station, such as the nearest air-operations center (AOC). The aircraft typically attack in pairs, with the leading aircraft well forward and having its radar switched off and the trailing aircraft with the radar turned on. When targets are detected, the lead aircraft silently approaches with its radar in stand-by mode but not emitting. The attack is conducted silently, and, according to some sources, even the mid-course update can be accomplished based on information from the trailing aircraft. In the case of enemy attack, the leading aircraft can perform a break maneuver, and the second aircraft accelerates to engage.

The Captor also has several dogfight modes. For the search and track of maneuvering targets, the vertical-search mode conducts scans in vertical surface sweeps rather than horizontally in descending or ascending bars. There is also a boresight mode for designating a target visible on the head-up display (HUD) and a slaved mode for designating an air target with the use of helmet-mounted cueing system.

The Captor radar will also have some air-to-ground modes, which will be introduced in Tranche 2 aircraft (see below). A Doppler beam-sharpening (DBS) mode will provide a ground picture of one-meter resolution. A synthetic-aperture-radar (SAR) mode with 0.3-meter resolution is to be available, as well as ground-moving-target-indication/track (GMTI/T) and fixed-ground-target-track (FTT) modes. The range of the SAR is to be 80 km. A sea-surface-search-and-track mode is to have a range of 130 km. As for other modes, a ground-target rangefinding (GR) mode and a terrain-avoidance mode are to be introduced in Tranche 2. All the above modes are to support various weapons types that could be used against ground or naval targets.

In 1992, the EuroFIRST consortium was selected to develop and deliver the forward-looking-infrared/infrared-search-and-track (FLIR/IRST) unit for Eurofighter. The consortium consisted of FIAR (Milano, Italy) as a leading company, Pilkington Optronics (Glasgow, UK, now Thales Optronics LTd), and Tecnobit (Madrid, Spain). The Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipment (PIRATE) system is to be introduced in a basic version for Tranch 1/Block 5 aircraft and in a full version from Block 8. Full integration with other aircraft systems will be achieved on Tranche 2/Block 10 aircraft, except for German aircraft. The system will use a CCD-type FLIR camera with dual wavebands (3-5 and 8-11 microns). The processing speed of the PIRATE is to be up to 24-million pixels per second. The system will have a long range and a wide sector of search (detailed figures are classified) and will also be able to track multiple targets. Unofficial figures say the maximum range will be about 145 km in favorable conditions, with a 40-km identification range. Up to 200 targets will be able to be observed at a time, with tracking of several in a selected sector. The maximum observation sector, again according to unconfirmed information, is to be 75 degrees horizontally. Despite its name, the full version of PIRATE will also be able to track a designated ground target and present its picture on the helmet-mounted display. It will also be used as a navigation and landing aid. Air-to-air modes will include multiple-target track (MTT), single-target track (STT), and single-target identification (STI).

whats the RCS of Eurofighter, Su-35BM and the MFI 1.44?

but VERY NICE, fine article!

If China have something half as good thats indigious built, one of China's problem would be gone, the systems are excellent on paper, well at least to me.

Too bad China cant get Eurofighters...

If it can search for targets of RCS 5m^2 from 160 km, it gives it an advantage to fighters like the Su-35BM, missiles like the meteor can nail it with ease

but how does the EF supercruise without TVCs?

The Su-35BM gets a score of 4-1 favoring the EF... thats still not bad, if China gets this, China might find out the weaknesses of the plane, and this can ALL contribute to the Jian-XX in the future, China of coursely will get this, I really dont think China will built something and get it up and running in 10 years and use another 14 years for trial and error

it can supercruise, because it's T/W ratio is over 10!
All the 4th generation planes use engines with T/W ratio of 7 to 8.

it said, RCS for EF is 1 m^2, for su-35bm probably 8m^2 (although, this might be reduced, since it supposedly adopts some stealth features) and MFI (no idea, it's a huge plane though).

Chairman Hu said:

but how does the EF supercruise without TVCs?

Click to expand...

As tphuang stated, the T/W of the EJ200 is over 10 and the overall T/W of the EF is over 1 plus aerodynamically it is a sound design--all these factors allow the EF to supercruise. TVC has nothing to do with an aircraft's ability to supercruise. If anything, the TVC adds weight and would ultimately hinder acceleration performance, but not by much. I have to add, I doubt the EF's ability to supercruise with a full weapon's load due to the added drag. With internal stores, the F-22 does not have this problem.

errr NOW i feel dumb, yea but thanks for the explaination

EF with a RCS of 1m^2, and a T/W of 10...

How much weight does TVC add to planes like the 35BM? are 2-D TVC lighter or 3-D?

Chairman Hu said:

errr NOW i feel dumb, yea but thanks for the explaination

EF with a RCS of 1m^2, and a T/W of 10...

How much weight does TVC add to planes like the 35BM? are 2-D TVC lighter or 3-D?

Click to expand...

the tvc added about one ton of weight to the mki more then ther mkk. but thats ok, consideraing india wants to use the aircraft as a fighter, not an attacker. 2-d and 3-d engines is too broad. there are many types of engines. thye all have different weights.

errr sry lemme clearify...

2-D engine like the one from the F-22
3-D engine like the one from the MFI 1.44

WHOA A ton on the MKI?! is that... 35.5 tonnes total? thats actually not bad, isnt some of the MKK to be... 38.5 tonnes according to sinodefence?