attempts to obtain foreign combat types: Saab Draken, Mirage, Harrier, P-16 ....

I think we all know the successful attempts to obtain / purchase foreign combat types ... lesser known are such attempts esp. during the brief Sino-Western-honeymoon during the 1980s like the Harrier and the French deliveries of helicopters ... we also know that prior to the J-10 there were considerations to buy the Mirage 2000, but I was a bit surprised to find this during my ongoing search / research. It's an interesting note I previously did not know, regarding the attempt purchase the Swiss P-16 fighter bomber and Swedish J-35 fighters: :huh:

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In 1962, Red Chinese representatives from the second Ministry of Machine Building responsible for licensed aircraft production visited aircraft production plants in Sweden and Switzerland in order to make arrangements for Chinese production of advanced designs under development in both European countries. Top priority was assigned to obtaining rights and assistance to produce an export version of the Swedish SAAB J-35 Draken, a modern Rolls-Royce RB-146-powered double-delta-fighter equipped with afterburners and a highly sophisticated electronic fire-control system. Negotiations fell through before any positive steps could be taken. In Switzerland, the Chinese showed interest in the AFA P-16 Mark III Strike Fighter, but nothing came of the connection.
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Since the Draken is quite well known, here’s a bit more on the P-16:


Even more ...

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Recognition of the People’s Republic of China by France in January, 1964, seemed to offer another avenue of aircraft acquisition, and discussions at the French trade fair at Peking in April, 1964, centered on the sale of Dassault Mirage fighters and nuclear bombers to the Chinese.
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Does anyone have some more specific details and information on these three finally failed attempts ... and does anyone have more such ones ??

Thanks in advance,
Deino

I knew that France tried to cozy up with China in the 60s but never knew that they were gonna offer fighter jets that early. Very interesting find.

I am a bit skeptical about the nuclear bomber part. Wouldn't this be considered sale of strategic weapons?

Well, I knew in late 70s and into 80s China was looking at Dassault desgins to license produce.
they were fairly interested in Mirage 2000, then Soviet Union fell apart so they brought Su-27 instead.

in the 80s there was a move to obtain F-16 production line in China.
never went further than feelers.

as to Nuclear bombers. prob Mirage IV.
DeGualle was bit crazy then he would sell anything to anyone.

They were fairly interested in Mirage 2000, especially impressed by the FBW. However, eventually they decided not to. Money is one issue, another reason is that "certain domestic fighter offers similar performance" (loosely translated from Chinese Baguwen).

That domestic fighter is certainly J8II. That's another reason why I believe J8II is not as bad as many people thinks.

i.e. said:

Well, I knew in late 70s and into 80s China was looking at Dassault desgins to license produce.
they were fairly interested in Mirage 2000, then Soviet Union fell apart so they brought Su-27 instead.

in the 80s there was a move to obtain F-16 production line in China.
never went further than feelers.

as to Nuclear bombers. prob Mirage IV.
DeGualle was bit crazy then he would sell anything to anyone.

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From what I heard the Mirage 2000 deal didn't fall through since the French refused tech transfer. The worst part is they ended up selling the plane to Taiwan eventually.

The F-16 deal never would've worked. Although the Chinese military was highly impressed by Thunderbird's show in China they didn't have enough money to purchase the F-16s.

I think UK approached China for a Harrier deal during the 80s as well.

Yes, the Harrier-deal or its attempt is quilte well documented ... but regarding otherwise the secret Sino-US connections, I have that strange feeling since some time that esp. the US wouldn't like to be reminded (a situation that reminds me to former girl-friend I had ) ... the question is what else was under negotiations or even more already delivered besides the well known things like the Boeing B.737 + CFM-56 engines, F-16-radar for the J-8B-Peace Pearl (were they ever delivered ?), the Super-7 (why was never an official diagram published from Grumman ?).


I remember the rumours about SAC's intention to acquire the licence to manufacture the F-16 ... there were reports about a new "clean-sheet-design" under consideration with CAC as a follow-on to the S-7 ... was there maybe an US-powerplant considered for the J-10 ?? Who knows ?? ... and esp. what's true ?


Deino

There was a Baguwen about the Peace Pearl project which I found interesting.

US engineers studied the J8II, and came back with two issues which prevent them from installing the agreed systems. It is a Baguwen so we will never know the exact, but we can guess.

One issue involves a component which needs to be replaced, and they asked a lot of money for it (on top of the 10m/piece price). Of course the Chinese engineers want to redesign the component themselves. Another issue requires the changing of the whole structure.

My guess is, the first issue is the power generator for electricity. The original one simply didn't generate enough power. The second issue is the AC. The structure has to be changed for the AC system and pipes. The US radar and avionics uses much more power and generate more heat, thus requires AC cooling. There was/is no evidence that J8II had AC design. (J10 obviously has it, not sure about JF17)

johnqh said:

The second issue is the AC. The structure has to be changed for the AC system and pipes. The US radar and avionics uses much more power and generate more heat, thus requires AC cooling. There was/is no evidence that J8II had AC design. (J10 obviously has it, not sure about JF17)

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without an enviornmental system (read: A/C) the pilot would have frozen to death at 50000 ft.

Deino said:

Yes, the Harrier-deal or its attempt is quilte well documented ... but regarding otherwise the secret Sino-US connections, I have that strange feeling since some time that esp. the US wouldn't like to be reminded (a situation that reminds me to former girl-friend I had ) ... the question is what else was under negotiations or even more already delivered besides the well known things like the Boeing B.737 + CFM-56 engines, F-16-radar for the J-8B-Peace Pearl (were they ever delivered ?), the Super-7 (why was never an official diagram published from Grumman ?).


I remember the rumours about SAC's intention to acquire the licence to manufacture the F-16 ... there were reports about a new "clean-sheet-design" under consideration with CAC as a follow-on to the S-7 ... was there maybe an US-powerplant considered for the J-10 ?? Who knows ?? ... and esp. what's true ?


Deino

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That clean sheet design from CAC I think became FC-1.
notionally they were thinking about buying some engines (derivatives of F100, PW1120? may be?) for J-10.
its all wild dreams.

during 60s-70s after they got locked out by Soviets, they sent out these buying missions. strange ones,
never mounts to anything. significant except for Spey.

siegecrossbow said:

From what I heard the Mirage 2000 deal didn't fall through since the French refused tech transfer. The worst part is they ended up selling the plane to Taiwan eventually.

The F-16 deal never would've worked. Although the Chinese military was highly impressed by Thunderbird's show in China they didn't have enough money to purchase the F-16s.

I think UK approached China for a Harrier deal during the 80s as well.

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The French prob sent some documents to China with all the bribes that was flying around.

and hey, China is not some middleeastern oil kingdoms, they didn't get impressed just by airshows. They checked out the capability and was really impressed by F-16.