The Future Of Vertical aviation.

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I have a Question too pose for you, Where is Vertical lift aircraft going?( other then up...) And I am not refering to VTOL fighters. I mean helicopters and the like.
For the past decades Over and over Something like 90% of the Helicopter industry has consisted of adding new doodads too old designs. with a few freaks they are almost all upgrades on the Vought-Sikorsky VS-300. the first Practical helicopter introducing the tail rotor. After the vs300 and R4 it seemed that other then up rated engines and avionics the industry rarely pushed anything really breaking the mold into production. Sure the Chinook/Seaknight rare Intermeshing rotors and Kamov with there Coaxial but they rarely reached wide uses. in the
Today We stand at a unique moment in vertical lift. The Conflicts in the middle east have proven that although advanced, conventional Helicopters are lacking in speed and So not Since the 1960's ( the Lockheed XH-51,Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne,Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk [Sr.], Kamov V100, the works of the Fairey Aviation Company Limited, ecta... ecta... ) today we have a increasing number of Compound helicopters in development at least five makers Are pushing forward with Compound configurations.
In the Russian Federation OPK Oboronprom owners of Kamov are pushing the KA92 a coaxial compound helicopter with Coaxial pusher prop aimed at 30 passengers and a top speed of 430 km/h they are also working on resurrecting the Ka 90 test program a Rotor-craft at take off but a jet at flight. Also owned by Oboronprom Mil is pushing the mil-X1 a single bladed helicopter with pusher prop and 25 passenger range. Although both Kamov and mil are looking civilian in the releases how long would it take for a military Compound?
In France Eurocopter's known X3 Demonstrator a single rotor compound with high mounted wings and twin five bladed props as well as a as yet unseen possible replacement for the Dolphin known as the x4 that promises too among other things eliminated the cockpit.
Here in the US We have Sikorsky's X2 demonstrator using a coaxial main rotor system and pusher prop punching though the record with a 259 mph; 417 km/h speed, with the promise of a father developed S97 Raider offered as part of the Army's Armed Aerial Scout Redo part three, Piasecki with the X-49 speed hawk a H-60 Blackhawk[Jr.] with wings and a pusher prop clocking 225 mph 360 km/h and now AVX Aircraft Company offering too take the OH 58 and rebuild it into a Compound with coaxial main rortor and twin mini pusher props, as part of there offering for the US Armys next Armed Aerial Scout
But before you go making your bests I have yet too mention the rising of the tilt rotors . Bell Agusta BA 609 light, Bell Helicopter also offered a UH60/Ah64 sized "Hybrid tandem rotor" for the US Army's coming Joint multi-role medium. the V22 series is not the last as Bell and Boeing aims too up themselves with a four rotor ( Quad tilt rotor) aimed at taking the place of the C130J Lockheed and Karem Aircraft ( founded by the Father of the Predator) aim too take that crown with there Optimum Speed Tilt-Rotor a super sized twin engined tilt-rotor, both with aircraft the size of the A400m or better well lifting off vertically. Karem also aims a new concept Civil Transport tilt rotors a 707 sized aircraft for regional flights from smaller airports.
When you then factor in the Stealth MH60 ( Bell Did display a so called "Stealth Adapted Quad rotor" Image at a Army Aviation day.) where do you think the future of Vertical Aviation is going? ( I will chime in after a few posts. )
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'm thinking we'll see more v-22 like VTOL and coaxial helicopters in due time. I can't give a timeline but eventually we might start seeing jet powered osprey like aircraft. Real sci fi.

And china continues to fall behind... :(
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Given China's population living mostly in densely populated environment, and the terrain being generally mountainous, one would expect China to invest heavily in vertical transport as oppose to normal aircraft transport which requires costly airports (in term of area/space, and construction). America doesn't have such problem as it has mostly flat lands, and low population density so it can afford to have 15,095 airports (!!) compare to China's 482.

But I think the 2008 Sichuan earthquake exposed the critical problem in such area that China is now investing in the production and development of helicopters much more than ever before.

I think the latest news was the signing of cooperation deal with Russia to develop the successor of Mil Mi-26 super heavy lift transport helicopter back in July 2010. There is also continuous development of the Z-8 variants. Another project is the Avicopter Z-15 (Eurocopter EC175) which is a 7-ton class medium utility helicopter being developed by AVIC and Eurocopter schedule to be certified this year (2011).

Right now, I think China is only focusing on acquiring the know-how to produce and develop helicopters. There will be incremental improvements we will see in these projects, but nothing fundamentally innovative since China is still learning.

Those V-22 Osprey-like stuff probably won't show up in China for another 20 years for sure.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I don't think any country apart from the US is seriously looking into tilt rotors at the moment... Europe doesn't seem to be at least.
 

delft

Brigadier
Vertical Take Off and Landing is expensive compared with using conventional aircraft. Short Take Off and Landing is in between and deserves more attention. I would think of a tilt wing STOL similar to the Bv-144 ( from the mid-'40's! ), with four engines driving two contra-rotating props. The main problem is manufacturing the gears and we have seen major improvements in those, especially driven by the needs of the helicopters.
V-22 was driven by military needs and does not provide a good basis for civilian aircraft.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
for the record the "Areo-train" concept uses more electrical based movement then the osprey.
As for European Tilt-rotors I think i can dispute that
flight global dated 21/02/10 said:
AgustaWestland looks to take full control of BA609 civil tiltrotor programme
By Luca Peruzzi

Italian rotorcraft maker AgustaWestland hopes to acquire control of the BA609 civil tiltrotor programme it shares with Bell Helicopter, in order to speed up the aircraft's certification and delivery to market.

Chief executive Giuseppe Orsi says negotiations are ongoing and adds that AgustaWestland's parent, the Italian industrial giant Finmeccanica, "has authorised us to conclude negotiations within certain conditions to reach this important achievement".

Orsi was speaking during the 35th annual Ambrosetti economic development conference at Lake Como, Italy, which featured a presentation of the VertiPass study on rotorcraft within the framework of a future integrated national mobility plan for Italy. The event also featured a BA609 flying display.

Also present was Finmeccanica president and chief executive Pier Francesco Guarguaglini, who forecast that the world market for BA6090s would be 500 aircraft within 10 years of first delivery, including 40-50 aircraft to be sold to Italian government agencies.

According to Orsi, BA609 certification in the US and European Union is currently on schedule for 2013. He says more than 80 aircraft have been ordered so far by some 40 customers, including government agencies, with an expected price above €20 million ($29 million) depending on configuration.

So far, the Bell-AgustaWestland BA609 joint venture has completed two of four planned prototypes, with one flying in Italy and a second in the USA. A third aircraft is currently in production.

Bell would not comment on the development.

Recent years have seen Bell's share of the world market for civil helicopters slide from just over a half of the market to barely a fifth in unit terms, with Eurocopter enjoying the dominance Bell once had. By value, figures from Teal Group analysts in Washington show Eurocopter and AgustaWestland led the 2008 civil market with 38% and 34% respectively, leaving Bell third with 11%.

But tiltrotor technology has been a boost for Bell, with the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey military tiltrotor proving popular with the US Marines. After the 2008 Farnborough air show Bell's executive vice-president for customer solutions Mike Blake said that while the company has no short-term expectations for the BA609, it believes the tiltrotor's combination of vertical lift with a tripling of range and doubling of speed compared with helicopters will one day win over civil fliers if the machines are affordable.
flightglobal21/09/09 said:
AgustaWestland looks to take full control of BA609 civil tiltrotor programme
By Luca Peruzzi

Italian rotorcraft maker AgustaWestland hopes to acquire control of the BA609 civil tiltrotor programme it shares with Bell Helicopter, in order to speed up the aircraft's certification and delivery to market.

Chief executive Giuseppe Orsi says negotiations are ongoing and adds that AgustaWestland's parent, the Italian industrial giant Finmeccanica, "has authorised us to conclude negotiations within certain conditions to reach this important achievement".

Orsi was speaking during the 35th annual Ambrosetti economic development conference at Lake Como, Italy, which featured a presentation of the VertiPass study on rotorcraft within the framework of a future integrated national mobility plan for Italy. The event also featured a BA609 flying display.

Also present was Finmeccanica president and chief executive Pier Francesco Guarguaglini, who forecast that the world market for BA6090s would be 500 aircraft within 10 years of first delivery, including 40-50 aircraft to be sold to Italian government agencies.

According to Orsi, BA609 certification in the US and European Union is currently on schedule for 2013. He says more than 80 aircraft have been ordered so far by some 40 customers, including government agencies, with an expected price above €20 million ($29 million) depending on configuration.

So far, the Bell-AgustaWestland BA609 joint venture has completed two of four planned prototypes, with one flying in Italy and a second in the USA. A third aircraft is currently in production.

Bell would not comment on the development.

Recent years have seen Bell's share of the world market for civil helicopters slide from just over a half of the market to barely a fifth in unit terms, with Eurocopter enjoying the dominance Bell once had. By value, figures from Teal Group analysts in Washington show Eurocopter and AgustaWestland led the 2008 civil market with 38% and 34% respectively, leaving Bell third with 11%.

But tiltrotor technology has been a boost for Bell, with the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey military tiltrotor proving popular with the US Marines. After the 2008 Farnborough air show Bell's executive vice-president for customer solutions Mike Blake said that while the company has no short-term expectations for the BA609, it believes the tiltrotor's combination of vertical lift with a tripling of range and doubling of speed compared with helicopters will one day win over civil fliers if the machines are affordable.
Flight global 14/03/11 said:
Bell, AgustaWestland disagree on future of BA609 partnership
By Stephen Trimble

Airframers AgustaWestland and Bell Helicopter have engaged in a public spat over the future management of their BellAgusta Aerospace joint venture, which produces the BA609 civil tiltrotor.

Giuseppe Orsi, AgustaWestland's chief executive, ignited the row on the eve of the HAI Heli-Expo convention.

Orsi said that Bell's executives have "agreed" to change the management of the BA609 programme, although negotiations are ongoing.

AgustaWestland has been in discussions with Bell for nearly two years to take over leadership of the BA609, which has been delayed until at least 2016.

BA 609 tiltrotor, Bell Helicopter
© Bell Helicopter

But Bell executives disagreed with Orsi. "We're continuing to work to find the best way to get the aircraft to certification," chief executive John Garrison said. "It will take a partnership to get there." Garrison added that there has been no change to Bell's position in regard to the discussions with AgustaWestland.

When asked to respond, AgustaWestland clarified that Bell will remain in the partnership as a junior partner, so Garrison's comments were actually in line with Orsi's position.

But Bell continued to disagree with AgustaWestland's stance, saying that it remains "premature" to say that Bell has agreed to accept a junior role in the partnership.

The BA609 is a product of Bell's experimental XV-15 tiltrotor, and leverages the technology developed for the US military's V-22 Osprey. Despite its shared technology, flight tests for the BA609 have been plagued by delays.

The twin-engined tiltrotor, meanwhile, continues to fly at a "low pace" in the delayed certification process, Orsi says. Originally expected to receive regulatory approval in 2011, the BA609 is now scheduled to be certificated in 2015 or 2016, AgustaWestland says.

The timing of certification is based on the progress of de-icing testing, which will not begin until the third test aircraft starts flying in 2013, AgustaWestland says.

That aircraft is now on the assembly line. Meanwhile, the second prototype of the BA609 is flying in Italy, and AgustaWestland has received the fuselage of the fourth prototype.

The first prototype of the nine-passenger business aircraft completed its main flight eight years ago.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Given China's population living mostly in densely populated environment, and the terrain being generally mountainous, one would expect China to invest heavily in vertical transport as oppose to normal aircraft transport which requires costly airports (in term of area/space, and construction). America doesn't have such problem as it has mostly flat lands, and low population density so it can afford to have 15,095 airports (!!) compare to China's 482.

Southern China is mountainous, yes. However, northern China is very flat. The eastern portion of North China is pretty much entirely plains while the western portion of the North China is almost entirely desert (the infamous Gobi desert). So on word: flat. One of the major worries that China has is its northern plains have almost no geographical obstacles against any potential mechanized invasion from the north. One of the main functions for Xinjiang is being a buffer between Russia and flat northern and northwestern China.

Additionally, the mostly populated areas in China is on the East coast, which is also flat. The most mountanous areas in China is located in the central and West.
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Southern China is mountainous, yes. However, northern China is very flat. The eastern portion of North China is pretty much entirely plains while the western portion of the North China is almost entirely desert (the infamous Gobi desert). So on word: flat. One of the major worries that China has is its northern plains have almost no geographical obstacles against any potential mechanized invasion from the north. One of the main functions for Xinjiang is being a buffer between Russia and flat northern and northwestern China.

Additionally, the mostly populated areas in China is on the East coast, which is also flat. The most mountanous areas in China is located in the central and West.


What I meant was, the area most people live, are either high density or its mountainous, which is bad for airport construction. Nobody wants to live in desert, and northern China if I am not mistaken is experiencing severe droughts, with possibility that it could turn it into a desert in the next 100 years (like the great american "dust bow"
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).

As China's rural population continue to migrate to the more prosperous east coast cities, the pressure will intensify on the build-able area of land, with less and less land available (if not already) for airports which requires very large area and clearings for aircraft approach.

On the other hand, "helipad" on top of the high rise building is fairy cheap and low cost in a high density environment. The only problem I see is it will conflict with the solar panel installations which are usually on top of the high rise buildings.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Which brings us too the concept of smaller airports using vertical lift aircraft. the Idea being that why travel too a huge airport for a non international flight but rather why not travel too a smaller location and hop a shuttle too your destination A sort of Bus or train for the air. Hence the large tilt rotor of Karem Aviation's dreams
aerobig.jpg
The goal being you take a small existing airport upgrade it then run hops from city too city in minutes as opposed to hours.

This concept is one of the reasons I asked my question. The civilian heavy vertical. where the light compound helicopter is better for Air Ambulances and SAR the heavy lifter at high speed caring passengers seems the best use fallowed by airborne fire control and disaster relief . Well the military will take what it likes for it's needs.
 

Scratch

Captain
I believe the driving factor for vert lift development in the civilian sector will naturally be profitability. As I see it, so far helos have traditionally been more expensive than light planes, both in acquisition and maintenance. And I guess this will hold true for the future. All these tilt something designs will be rather complicated, and getting them airborne fully loaded while not having supporting wings will remain fuel costly. I therefore think vert lift transport will be something that will remain a niche solution for wealthy customers who can affort it.
Another aspect is the near airport argument. Those only make sense if they are closeby to shuttle somewhere else. Especially in modern post industrial societies people will be reluctant to accept a vert lift airport close by in every major city becase of the noise burden. Maybe some kind of STOL design is more promissing.

Military vert lift, however, is not so much driven by money but rather tactical needs. I still think the conventional layout will stick around for years to come. Specialized roles will emerge, however. Since speed is a major benefit, I think some kind of pusher rotor design will make it operatinal for scouting/light attack, and maybe SF insertion/exfil. The Osprey is around but might not have a like peer for some time, maybe smaller designs/drones.
 
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