Well, I can say that I've heard a lot of WS-10 mods and seen no one, so what? Should I think that government investments in Shenyang went nowhere? Your statement sounds like you demand all prospective projects to be put in series at once or shown to everyone - but have you ever seen at least one Article 117 photo ever? Remember, engines here are being made by guys with average income about 8-10 thousand bucks a year. Give us as much as P&W got for F135 and we will launch J-20 to the Moon... M1 btw is going to Su-34
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
Mind you we're not entirely sure of the WS-10 variants either. as they say, seeing is believing.
yeah, but we have so little expectations for WS-10 series. I think a large part of the PLA followers have totally lost hope in Shenyang Liming already. It was a relief that we finally saw J-11B flying with them. Whereas for Salyut has at least been producing a bunch of engines for J-10. I've been reading articles since 2007 from Chinese side (not even from Russian side) about their interest in 99M series. It seemed like we were going to see a battle between one of the 99M variants and WS-10G as the propulsion for J-10B. Obviously, neither one is showing up, which makes the entire J-20 propulsion situation so puzzling for many people. If Salyut does end up producing something that fits the requirement, then I am all for it.
Skywatcher
Captain
I'm wrong. Both the AL-31F the WS-10 has a similar inner nozzle structure. If its there, we can't see it because of photo quality.
Which puts us back at square one: the fuselage engine housing matches the AL-31F but the nozzles definitely are not that of the J-20 AL-31F's original ones we saw back in the first week. (With all due respect to Maya, they're certainly not painted or treated AL-31F original nozzles, the sawtooth edges connecting the nozzle petals to the rest of the engine would mean the replacedment of the entire nozzle petal arrangement).
Ain't PLAAF watching fun?
PS: Far as I can tell, the engine fairings on the J-11A and J-11B were pretty much identical. I don't suppose anyone wishes to correct me on the matter?
Which puts us back at square one: the fuselage engine housing matches the AL-31F but the nozzles definitely are not that of the J-20 AL-31F's original ones we saw back in the first week. (With all due respect to Maya, they're certainly not painted or treated AL-31F original nozzles, the sawtooth edges connecting the nozzle petals to the rest of the engine would mean the replacedment of the entire nozzle petal arrangement).
Ain't PLAAF watching fun?
PS: Far as I can tell, the engine fairings on the J-11A and J-11B were pretty much identical. I don't suppose anyone wishes to correct me on the matter?
Roger604
Senior Member
This supports the theory that China has fully indigenized AL-41F and does not physically import anything from Russia for the latest ones. The Chinese have not shown any interest in buying more AL-31FN for J-10 or AL-31F for J-11 variants.
Unless there is some interest, it means either China is not making any more aircraft or China domestically produces its own AL-31F. Surely the former is not the case. We see too many aircraft with AL-31F far exceeding reported purchases.
They are not ordering any more engines because both the J-11B and J-11BS are using FWS-10. They will probably finish the remaining AL-31FNs off before installing WS-10As into the J-10s.
So anyone want to enlighten me as to what the chances are that China has reverse engineered the AL-31? I mean, if you can greatly expand its lifespan using more advanced materials...why couldn't you just build the engines yourself?
Replacing parts is a bit different from opening up an entire production line. It probably could be done, but it might not be worth the investment capital.
Roger604
Senior Member
What remaining AL-31FNs? I think they ordered about 200 in total. But there are about 200 J-10's now. Some of the engines need to be set aside for spares too.And AL-31FN has a very short MTBO.
In other words, the numbers just don't add up anymore. The "maintenance program" for AL-31F seems to have gotten more and more advanced until it became just a reverse engineering program. If you can greatly expand its lifespan by replacing critical parts like turbine blades then you can build your own variant.
Given how invested PLAAF is in AL-31F variants -- J-11A, J-10, J-15 prototype and even J-20 prototype, it would be well worth the investment capital to produce its own AL-31F variant!
My view is that Chengdu AC doesn't like FWS10 because the manufacturer Liming is related to Shenyang AC. That is why CAC insists on AL-31FN on J-10s and AL-31F variant on J-20. Yet importing engines are expensive and no contracts with NPO Saturn have been signed for AL-31F since 2009. So what's the solution? Get a CAC affiliated body to do "maintenance" work on the AL-31F that eventually turns into a major lifespan upgrade and eventually they just build the whole thing themselves.
That's what the "prize" from Beijing to the "maintenance" engineer is for!
Very good analyse.. Indeed the plant responsible for overhaul AL-31FN and capable of extending the life of the engine is from CAC and not Shengyang.
Consider the fierce rival between SAC and CAC, it is possible CAC hate Shengyang Liming so much that they do not want WS-10 to be install in their J-10 and instead rely on their own AL-31FN which they can continue extend its life... But the possibility of RE AL-31FN is also very high. There is only much you can do to extend something. End of the day, the best way to continue keep aircraft running is to build an complete engine for it. Plus, more new birds are coming. Overhauling engine is not the solution to support so much plane.
Given that they are capable of extending the engine life. It show how much they have come to understand the whole engine. Even complete grasp of it. It will not be too difficult to predict they are capable of RE AL-31FN.
Of cos, this kind of thing will not be open and they will keep quiet about it.