North Korean Military.

Spartan95

Junior Member
^ Maybe the Russians are supplying them with extra fuel.

Or PRC, or both PRC and Russia are supplying DPRK with more fuel. Maybe that's 1 of the things that Kim asked for during his trips to PRC.

Anyway, more news on DPRK's military:

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N.Korea Boosts Special Forces, Conventional Arms

North Korea's special forces have grown by 20,000 over the past two years, reaching about 200,000 in total and increasing the so-called asymmetric threat the country poses to the South.

The numbers come from the defense white paper 2010 published on Thursday, which says the North has consistently boosted its special warfare capabilities, deploying a light infantry division under an Army corps stationed on the frontline and adding a light infantry regiment to an Army division there.

The 200,000-odd special troops are primed to carry out combined operations such as attacks on major facilities in South Korea, assassination of VIPs and harassment in the rear by infiltrating the South using underground tunnels and AN-2 aircraft capable of low-altitude infiltration, the white paper said.

The number of the North’s special forces, reportedly the world's largest, was estimated at about 120,000 in the 2006 defense white paper and at about 180,000 in the 2008 white paper. They now account for 17 percent of the North's 1.19 million soldiers (1.02 million in the Army, 60,000 in the Navy and 110,000 in the Air Force).

According to the white paper the North Korean Army has about 4,100 tanks, up 200 from two years ago, and about 2,100 armored vehicles, showing no increase over the same period. It has deployed a new tank at the frontline dubbed "Pokpung" (Storm) patterned after the Soviet Union's old T-72 tank, while superannuated tanks are deployed at rear-area units.

The Pokpung tanks are reportedly equipped with stronger firepower and better maneuverability than the old "Chonma" (Flying Horse), an improved version of the T-62.

The white paper identifies a new antiaircraft missile with a vertical launch control system, which was unveiled during a massive parade in celebration of the Workers Party's anniversary in October, as the "KN-06," and a medium-range ballistic missile with a range of 3,000 km as the "Musudan."

It says the North continues to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missiles to secure strategic weapons. It has extracted an estimated 40 kg of plutonium by reprocessing spent nuclear fuel rods which it acquired by operating a 5 MW nuclear reactor since the 1980s. It also has 2,500 to 5,000 tons of various chemical weapons, according to the white paper.

The North Korean Army consists of 15 corps, 90 divisions, and 70 mobile brigades. Troop numbers are similar to 2008, but four more divisions and one more brigade were created.

Equipment includes about 8,500 field guns, 5,100 multiple rocket launchers, and some 100 surface-to-surface missiles, as well as 170 mm self-propelled guns and 240 mm multiple rocket launchers that can deliver blitzkrieg fire at the Seoul metropolitan area from their current positions.

The North Korean Navy has about 420 combat warships, 260 landing ships, 30 minesweepers, about 30 support vessels and some 70 submarines. The Air Force has some 820 combat aircraft, 30 surveillance and control aircraft, 330 aerial mobile planes and some 170 training aircraft. Compared to 2008, that is 20 fewer combat aircraft and 10 fewer training aircraft.

A ministry official said the figures "are the outcome of estimates by Korean and U.S. intelligence agencies of all North Korean Air Force aircraft capabilities, including aircraft that have been downed since 2008 and those that have long remained unused."

The North also has about 300 helicopters, 7.7 million reserve forces, and some 300 munition factories. The military is keeping most of the ordnance stored in caves and has two to three month's worth of supplies, the white paper estimates.
[email protected] / Dec. 31, 2010 12:05 KST

I'd say that the DPRK military-industrial complex is doing quite well if it can continue to develop and produce new MBTs and missiles (assuming the report is reasonable accurate and not a case of RoK media playing up the DRPK threat). A production of ~100 MBTs per year is no mean feat.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Regarding the special force of DPRK... I always wonder, what was the term special force in terms of training, skills, equipment level, etc to the DPRK and South Korea. I mean, what is the total number of regular troops do DPRK have (minus the air force and navy) - 1 million, 1.5 million, 2 million? Take it as 2 millions for assumption. 200000 special force member means that there are 10% of the entire Army to be special force commandoes or operatives... that is a number that is quite amazingly large.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
Beats me. Although I guess for DPRK, special forces may include units trained to fight like guerillas.

Anyway, here's an interesting piece of news:

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N.Korea calls for better relations with South
Posted: 01 January 2011 0635 hrs

SEOUL: North Korea called for better relations with South Korea on Saturday, amid heightened tensions on the divided peninsula after the North's deadly bombardment of a border island.

"Confrontation between North and South should be defused as early as possible," joint New Year editorials of three leading North Korean state newspapers said.

Relations plunged after the North's artillery attack in November that killed four people including civilians, leading to worldwide condemnation and calls for China to rein in its close ally.

The South has since staged a series of military exercises, including a live-fire drill on December 20 on the shelled island, but the North did not follow through with threats of a new and deadlier attack.

The newspapers said: "This year we should launch a more determined campaign to improve inter-Korean relations..."

They went on: "Active efforts should be made to create an atmosphere of dialogue and cooperation between North and South by placing the common interests of the nation above anything else."

The editorial also reiterated that Pyongyang, whose nuclear drive has been the subject of currently stalled six-party talks, is committed to denuclearisation.

But in a nod to South Korean military drills that have sometimes included the United States, the newspapers warned: "It is imperative to check the North-targeted war exercises and arms build-up of the bellicose forces at home and abroad that seriously threaten national security and peace."

As well as the communist North's deadly shelling of Yeonpyeong island, Seoul also accuses the North of sinking one of its warships in March near the disputed border in the Yellow Sea, a charge Pyongyang strongly denies.

The mild tone of the state editorials are a stark contrast to the bellicose language used by North Korea for much of the year as relations with Seoul dived.

In December, the impoverished North warned it was ready for a "sacred war" using its nuclear weapons as the South held a live-fire drill in a show of strength to its neighbour.

Pyongyang last month reportedly offered nuclear concessions to visiting US politician Bill Richardson.

But Seoul and Washington have expressed scepticism about the apparent overtures from the North, whose hardline communist regime is undergoing a generational power shift.

North Korea pulled out of the stalled nuclear talks -- which involve the two Koreas, the United States, Russia, China, and Japan -- in April 2009 and ordered UN nuclear inspectors out of the country.

It staged a second nuclear test a month later.

- AFP/fa

Wonder if this is just hot air from DPRK to cool tensions for a while, or it they will follow up with real actions to pursue better relations with RoK?
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Regarding the special force of DPRK... I always wonder, what was the term special force in terms of training, skills, equipment level, etc to the DPRK and South Korea. I mean, what is the total number of regular troops do DPRK have (minus the air force and navy) - 1 million, 1.5 million, 2 million? Take it as 2 millions for assumption. 200000 special force member means that there are 10% of the entire Army to be special force commandoes or operatives... that is a number that is quite amazingly large.

The entire North Korean military employs about 1.1 million personal total. 1 million of those are in the Ground forces.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
The entire North Korean military employs about 1.1 million personal total. 1 million of those are in the Ground forces.

Seriously, I wonder what qualifies for Special Force in the NK military. Might not be the same as what we are seeing in Western terms. Because I seriously doubt the capability... fielding such vast numbers, what about their training, equipment... etc.

As I understand, Western idea of special forces are members of the military that had went through tedious and very specialised training... they are the best in their military arms and drop out rate is very high in the course of training.

Now... NK had only 1.1million personnel... And 200000 of them are special forces commandoes. this is a number that don't boils down well. Maybe for a NK scenario, special force only means members of the military that receive more training and better equipment, but are not in the same league as those Special Forces in Western army.
 

johnboy

New Member
Most of those 1 million men are poorly armed, and once the shooting starts the entire North Korean military would find itself in dire logistical straits. Basically, every unit in the entire structure would be entirely dependent on whatever it had on hand from that moment, because there would be no resupply. The evidence show that most of the people in North Korea are not brainwashed drones, and I doubt the rank and file are loyal enough to the regime to do much once they are hungry, thirsty and bombs are going off all around them. It wouldn't happen overnight, but those guys are the type that crack and surrender in droves. Only the units chosen recruited on the basis of political loyalty and given special treatment (the special forces for sure) could be counted upon; the rest are really just for show. North Korea is a classic example of Third World dictatorship military thinking.

The North Korean party elite know or suspect this better than anyone - if push came to shove and the government found itself in a war, it would be their doom. They could not possibly win it, and the more they escalated, the less likely Chinese protests would mean anything. Could you imagine the governments of South Korea, Japan and the United States caring even the slightest what Beijing thinks after a North Korean nuke went off, either on the battlefield or against a city? No threat would be credible after that point - who would risk full-scale, unconditional surrender warfare to save North Korea?

North Korea just wants to survive, and they need to be viewed as a threat to accomplish that. Paradoxical, but true. I suspect China, on the other hand, just wants to be rid of North Korea, and would gladly sell them down the river in exchange for a neutralized Korean peninsula.
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Most of those 1 million men are poorly armed, and once the shooting starts the entire North Korean military would find itself in dire logistical straits. Basically, every unit in the entire structure would be entirely dependent on whatever it had on hand from that moment, because there would be no resupply. The evidence show that most of the people in North Korea are not brainwashed drones, and I doubt the rank and file are loyal enough to the regime to do much once they are hungry, thirsty and bombs are going off all around them. It wouldn't happen overnight, but those guys are the type that crack and surrender in droves. Only the units chosen recruited on the basis of political loyalty and given special treatment (the special forces for sure) could be counted upon; the rest are really just for show. North Korea is a classic example of Third World dictatorship military thinking.
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I think you're off the mark on a few points. I would give the loyalty and "fighting spirit" of North Korean soldiers quite high marks, especially in the special forces. Their combat history in infiltration of South Korea shows a suicidal willingness to fight even under very dire conditions. Of course, the average infantryman won't be like that. But don't underestimate the degree to which North Koreans are loyal to their country. You see, a war with the South and the US is the reason that the regime in Pyongyang exists. Preparing for that war has been basically their national goal since the end of the last one. Since the end of the Cold War, they've certainly fallen behind on that goal. But I think it would be a mistake to say that the people of North Korea are not psychologically ready for it. All of the propaganda they've been exposed to their whole lives has prepared them for that moment and told them it's their personal and national destiny.

However, I think all that indoctrination could back fire when they come up against the raw firepower the allies will be able to bring down on their heads. They might quickly get disillusioned with the whole affair when they realize, thanks to a rain of 2000 lb JDAMs, that the outside world is not what they had been told it was. The "brilliant radiance" of the Dear Leader will do nothing to make their obsolete tanks win against K2s and Javelins. And the hard reality of the lie that their system is built on, the inferiority of the supposdely peerless worker's paradise, will then be obvious. It's hard to see what might happen then. Certainly they'll be reluctant to surrender, as they will have been told all sorts of lies about how the enemies they are facing are sub-human bloodthirsty racial inferiors that will kill them. Suffice to say that the US/SK should devote a lot of resource to Psyops, as there will be major opportunities to undermine NK morale in the event of a real war.
 

johnboy

New Member
With all due respect, you've made my case for me. I acknowledged that the special forces -- who are chosen on the basis of loyalty and receive high standards of everything -- would stand and prove reliable. But for the vast bulk of those 1 million men, I keep in mind what we know about the typical North Korean, many of whom flee to China rather than starve. Word slips out that the population is not quite as docile as the government wants everyone to believe. Even without access to Western news sources, those people know a good bit about how what their government really is simply because they can compare the propaganda to reality. That would apply doubly to the rank and file when, as you point out, the shooting starts and they wind up starving and shell-shocked after a few days.

My point not that no one would fight for Pyongyang, but that most of that 1 million man military machine would quit once three things happened: 1) they were removed (or removed themselves) from political supervision; 2) the logistics broke down and left them without food, water or ammunition; 3) they were overwhelmed with superior firepower. Quick, large-scale collapses of resistance to a regime like Pyonyang's have happened before, and I'm not thinking of just Iraq.

Basically, I read your statement and thought "where am I off," because you said the same thing, only more elaborately and with a different emphasis :)

I think you're off the mark on a few points. I would give the loyalty and "fighting spirit" of North Korean soldiers quite high marks, especially in the special forces. Their combat history in infiltration of South Korea shows a suicidal willingness to fight even under very dire conditions. Of course, the average infantryman won't be like that. But don't underestimate the degree to which North Koreans are loyal to their country. You see, a war with the South and the US is the reason that the regime in Pyongyang exists. Preparing for that war has been basically their national goal since the end of the last one. Since the end of the Cold War, they've certainly fallen behind on that goal. But I think it would be a mistake to say that the people of North Korea are not psychologically ready for it. All of the propaganda they've been exposed to their whole lives has prepared them for that moment and told them it's their personal and national destiny.

However, I think all that indoctrination could back fire when they come up against the raw firepower the allies will be able to bring down on their heads. They might quickly get disillusioned with the whole affair when they realize, thanks to a rain of 2000 lb JDAMs, that the outside world is not what they had been told it was. The "brilliant radiance" of the Dear Leader will do nothing to make their obsolete tanks win against K2s and Javelins. And the hard reality of the lie that their system is built on, the inferiority of the supposdely peerless worker's paradise, will then be obvious. It's hard to see what might happen then. Certainly they'll be reluctant to surrender, as they will have been told all sorts of lies about how the enemies they are facing are sub-human bloodthirsty racial inferiors that will kill them. Suffice to say that the US/SK should devote a lot of resource to Psyops, as there will be major opportunities to undermine NK morale in the event of a real war.
 
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