The sinking of South Korean Corvette Cheonan

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Finn, great post and I agree with you. The article lost me when he assumed that the DPRK statements are true.

And his miss-facts about the USNS Salvor laying mines..jeez are way off the mark. That ship does not have the ability to store mines. She's a salvage ship not a mine layer. Manned by civilians and a small USN detachment of divers.

The author has no creditability with anyone slightly familiar with the USN..
 

optionsss

Junior Member
The friendly fire scenario is implausible for other reasons. The ROK Government would prefer it were friendly fire - tragic but not an international incident with DPRK.

How is it so? ROK's people don't want to start a war, they don't even like the current government's tough talks. So long as there are no pressures from the people, the chance of war is zero.

However, if it was a friendly fire incidence by the US, it would put strong pressure for the Korean government to force US leaving the their country.

Also if you want to look at the bigger picture, what does DPRK stand to gain in attacking South Korean vessels? Attacking a South Korean vessels and then deny it, Kim have nothing to gain from this and a lot to lose.

I kind of remember when the news first break out, the US government specifically said that no DPRK vessels were operating in that region. I don't think government make that kind of statement without quality intels to back it up.
 

7sins

Just Hatched
Registered Member
This is interesting -- a perspective of a Korean shipyard's worker:
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Thats not the perspective of a shipyard worker; its the perspective of a shipbuilding engineer and ex SK navy officer who was part of the official investigation team - before being kicked out of the investigation by the government for not toeing the official line. He's now being sued for libel by the SK government for voicing his doubts on the official report:
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That doesnt mean his analysis is the correct one, but the way this is being handled is raising lots of red flags.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I'm reading the US and South Korea are pressuring China to publicly rebuke North Korea. Why is this important? China has already said it will not side with those responsible already passively pointing the finger at North Korea. Also there are the stories that Kim's trip was cut short because he didn't get what he wanted from Beijing partly because of this incident. If you think about it, the way this has played out follows along the best case scenario for the US and South Korea. Why haven't they attacked in retribution if they have officially acused North Korea of being responsible? Both know that if they respond with significant force, North Korea will still be able to at least cause massive damage and casualties upon Seoul. So why hasn't the US and South Korea exercised their right to respond militarily? Here's where the conspiracy comes in. Just as with Iran, they want it to fall on the lap of China. They want China to rebuke North Korea publicly so it creates a wall between the two. We've heard from people like Bill Richardson say that the North Koreans fear China more than anyone and their antics are actually a cry for help to the US and South Korea. If that were true then why don't they just unite with South Korea? Oh yeah, the "China has a gun to my head" excuse to divert attention away from those actually responsible or can't take resonsibility for their own actions. I'm sure there are those envious petty types in North Korea that actually think that way but again it's just so much easier to just get absorbed by the South. North Korea secretly yearns for acceptance from the US that it's willing to kill the very South Koreans brothers and sisters they want to unite with by torpedoing their ship? If it's more important to feed your ego to believe it, you are beyond reasonable thought. Which also means you're very capable of deception. You think someone is willing to sacrifice lives to impress the US and you don't think conspiracy is possible with this incident? A split between the two is exactly what the US and South Korea believe what it'll take to collapse the North with little danger to themselves. They want China to lose if their plan doesn't work. And to the least if it doesn't work, now North Korea might actually be aiming those nukes at China instead of them. All that happens without little expense to themselves if they're exploiting an accident or to the worst staging it just costing them the lives of those sailors.

Are they capable of such a conspiracy to fabricate this incident? Are they capable of exploiting an accident so they can call checkmate to this never ending chess game on the 38th parallel? You betcha. Do I have to remind everyone of incidents to the very recent of how things are fabricated in times of conflict? Some people will get angry to suggest a conspiracy because it becomes a sort of cop-out. Just like how China is pointing a gun to North Korea's head? Now you know how it feels. So China shouldn't give South Korea and the US the public rebuke against the North because it's not necessary. China seems to have passively given the South the right to retaliate by not choosing a side. So if they want action to be taken, they should accept the consequences not China. Ironic how they see China's hesitancy and inaction as conspiracy yet ignore all the human rights violations the US is willing to commit on their southern border because of the immense burden of illegal immigration.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
I wasn't referring to a submarine, but the acoustic sensor on the torpedo. If the sensors on the Cheonan couldn't pick up the submarine, then the smaller and weaker sensor on the torpedo would certainly do worse.
Most torpedoes can be set to search for a target after a certain distance and they can be programmed for search patterns. Don't forget surface ships are much more noisier than submarines which means a bigger acoustic footprint to detect.

It is questionable that a mini-submarine would be able to house any meaningful acoustic equipment. The most probable way for such a submarine to obtain a target is via an operator like the way it was done in WWII, but he would still be subjected to the same constraints experience by ASW equipments.
Actually, the main types of North Korean mini subs are equipped with a passive hydrophone set. This would allow for the sub to figure out the bearing and with either a manual fire control computer or though a couple of calculus equations, a torpedo solution can be found. And since the torpedo was most likely a homing torpedo, aiming becomes a lot easier because the torpedo can provide final guidance once it is close enough.

No. You argued that it is improbable for a US nuclear submarine to be in that area, but did not mention anything about diesel submarines. Also, by "no Western submarine", do you imply that a Chinese or Russian nuclear/diesel submarine would dare to sail in that area?
Most conventional diesel electric subs suffer from the same issues. It would take a very daring commander to operate a conventional diesel submarine in such shallow waters. Smaller mini-subs will have a much easier time operating in such shallow waters.
 

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
It is questionable that a mini-submarine would be able to house any meaningful acoustic equipment.
Iranian IS-120 'Ghadir' midget submarines, essentially similar to the DPRK P-4, have bow mounted sonar array below the torpedo tubes. Not a huge sonar, but a sonar nonetheless. They also have mast mounted radars (as per DPRK submersibles), video periscope and IR/EO periscope. :coffee:

The P-4 and Sang-O subs captured from DPRK were infiltration not attack models.
 

7sins

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Refuting elements of theories posted by clueless bloggers or attacking the credentials of others posting alternative theories doesnt validate the official probe. It seems a lot of people want to give the SK probe the benefit of the doubt, and accept its conclusions unless proven otherwise. The opposite is more reasonable; north korea is innocent of this incident until proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

IF this investigation had been conducted thoroughly, transparently, by a team of experts that was above any suspicion of bias, its conclusions might live up to that standard. As it is however, the investigation team is anonymous (!), the credentials of its members unknown (for all I know its composed of hand picked war mongering intelligence people and weapon manufacturer CEOs), from countries that are anything but impartial and the report is a very far cry from irrefutable proof. It seems we are now going as far as arguing whether or not its conclusions are even feasible?

Here is how I see it: an undisclosed team of SK government endorsed "experts" from SK's allies concludes the cheonan was destroyed by an underwater explosion resulting in shockwave and bubblejet, despite the South korean sound engineering expert team that had access to all this data concluded the exact opposite and claimed no bubblejet occurred but a direct gunpowder explosion. The probe concludes the remains of a torpedo allegedly found on site perfectly matches secret schematics of a torpedo that North Korea sells for export (to whom?) of which no other evidence seems to exist. The probe somehow concludes the sheer presence of the torpedo wreckage proves a causal relation with the sinking of the cheonan and doesnt even consider the possibility this export product was exported to a third party country. Members of the investigation team appointed by the SK government that are qualified and had access to all evidence but dont share the view endorsed the the SK govermnemt, are removed from the team and subsequently silenced and even prosecuted. The prime suspect (north korea) is not even allowed to review the evidence.

How would this look in court?

AFAICS, every option is still possible. Yes, it could have been a NK attack, endorsed or not by its leaders. But it could just as well have been a covert false flag operation in line with the current administration's policy to implode the NK regime, where SK not only obtained the torpedo plans, but the torpedo itself. It could have been an accident as suggested by Chin. It could have been a mine. Or a friendly fire incident. It could even have been a false flag operation by a third party that would like to see further measures taken against NK (the US, Israel, possibly even China). Or any combination there off (an accident covered up by using a NK torpedo the south acquired earlier).

Speculating which of those is possible or more probable might be fun, but essentially irrelevant (and without direct access to crucial evidence, probably impossible). What is relevant is that (nuclear) war might break out over an unproven allegation.

Lets hope the Russian and/or Chinese investigations shed some more light on this before this spirals out of control. Too many wars have been started over insufficient or even fabricated evidence.
 
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hanqiang1011

New Member
The Chinese didn't sink the British warship. A drill launched by the stealth boat sank the warship. Plus, if I remember correctly, the PLA don't have any Migs other than self-produced fighter jets. And the plane in the movie seemed to have a solid cone, and the only planes at the time in PLA would be Q-5, which 1. Isn't a Mig 2. Isn't for PLAN

Bro, movies are movies afterall, I am just making an example. Thanks
 

vesicles

Colonel
One of my colleagues is a South Korean and has been following the case closely. Of course, he can do something that none of us can do, which is the ability to understand Koreans and to get info directly from the source (meaning no info would be lost due to mis-translation, etc). He said he, along with his family and almost every South Korean that he knows, don't believe a word that the SK govn't is saying. According to him, the so-called evidence presented by the SK govn't is so weak, anyone with an IQ would know it's fake. Of course, the language may not 100% accurate as it might contain some frustration toward his govn't...
 
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