JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Indianfighter said:

Besides, most fighter jets are designed around a proven engine, like how JF-17 was built around the RD-93. However, adding an altogether new engine means going back to the drawing board for some redesign (although not from scratch).

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For Pakistan, which has little experience in this field, it can take China's help given that China has designed the FC-1 for the most part, and has much more experience in engines and fuselage redesign.


Sir,

That used to be the practise of the 60's and before that, when fighter planes used to be built around the engine---.

Without having the dimensions of the new engine and the space available in the current frame, it would be silly on the part of any poster to assume that the replacement cannot be done.

There is a limit to stupidity in a discussion---and the posters are carrying on as if the life of their first born depends upon it---it is purely an engineering problem---space available versus the diemnsions of the engine---that is it.

We have a flying and operational sqdrn in place against all odds---I know the capability of what Kamra can do---it has proven to us that it can take projects other thought that we could not complete.

The type of engine that paf might be looking at, doesnot require much of modifications that kamra cannot perform on its own. Even though chinese help is always welcome, in this case, it wold not be needed and neither would there be any need of getting any permission from the chinese.

Bottomline is that at this stage paf is not interested to make any changes to the engine in the current batch of first 50 planes. There is no need for it.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

If FC-1 installed with WS-13, does it need to do alot of reconfig and testings?

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

lilzz said:

If FC-1 installed with WS-13, does it need to do alot of reconfig and testings?

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Probably not because I think WS-13 was designed with JF-17 as a possible destination.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

From what I can see, the reason for Pakistan to buy the JF-17 or entering a co-operation with the Chinese is in a number of folds...

1) JF-17/FC-1 is a good aircraft. Not really the best, but a good fighters anyway, and with lots of potential to grow.
2) Pakistan could learn alot in co-production of the aircrafts and it would speed up their design and manufacturing processes for hi-tech equipment.
3) True, enough the JF-17/FC-1 is designed in a modular platform, thus the potential for future upgrades and modification if needs arises, but the cost at present moment will increase to unacceptable level.
4) Pakistan had huge number of somewhat obsolete F-7 fighters, she needed modern fighters urgently to replace these old birds.
5) Political reason (do not want to go too deep into this area).

Thus as you can see, Pakistan could do whatever they want with the fighter, but the point is, it is not wise to do it now. The main aim for the JF-17 at present moment was to replace the F-7 in large quantity, thus the fighters needed to be a cheap and capable platform which at current status, it is more than enough.

So why is everyone so obsess in whether they change the engine or not? The Pakistani could do it in later phases when they are more confident and more JF-17 was available. And for higher class fighters, the Pakistani could and I believe is in the middle of negotiating, get the FC-20 or even with the Chinese willing, get the export version of the J-10. It would give them a good mixture of Hi-Lo fighter platform whereby the cheaper yet potent JF-17 become the Pakistani airforce workhorse while the higher range FC-20, F-10 or even western fighters becoming the elite forces.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

I don't know why there is a fuss about engine change

PAF is NOT currently actively looking for an engine replacement. It is an option and is at the back of their mind but nothing immediate is going to happen regarding the engines. So the question of who will do it or what it would cost doesn't even arise.

For the time being, PAF is only actively looking for avionics - radar + weapons for the next batch, while they absorb the current ones. And for that, the necessary work would be done in-house at Kamra while some the integration firms would also be responsible for some integration and possible consultancy.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

MastanKhan said:

Indianfighter said:

Besides, most fighter jets are designed around a proven engine, like how JF-17 was built around the RD-93. However, adding an altogether new engine means going back to the drawing board for some redesign (although not from scratch).

For Pakistan, which has little experience in this field, it can take China's help given that China has designed the FC-1 for the most part, and has much more experience in engines and fuselage redesign.


Sir,

That used to be the practise of the 60's and before that, when fighter planes used to be built around the engine---.

Without having the dimensions of the new engine and the space available in the current frame, it would be silly on the part of any poster to assume that the replacement cannot be done.

There is a limit to stupidity in a discussion---and the posters are carrying on as if the life of their first born depends upon it---it is purely an engineering problem---space available versus the diemnsions of the engine---that is it.

We have a flying and operational sqdrn in place against all odds---I know the capability of what Kamra can do---it has proven to us that it can take projects other thought that we could not complete.

The type of engine that paf might be looking at, doesnot require much of modifications that kamra cannot perform on its own. Even though chinese help is always welcome, in this case, it wold not be needed and neither would there be any need of getting any permission from the chinese.
Bottomline is that at this stage paf is not interested to make any changes to the engine in the current batch of first 50 planes. There is no need for it.

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That is an arrogant statement. FC-1 is a 50/50 joint venture of China with Pakistan. Anything need both consent. Remember China bear 99% of the FC-1 design to operational hardwork...

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Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

OMG... the penis competition is coming on again... instead of talking of the developement of JF-17/FC-1, we are again looking at whether Pakistan can do their own modification or not.

If MasterKhan care to look at the previous post by myself and others, maybe he will not actually fray up with simple post from others. Bottomline is... it is not whether Pakistan can do it or not, but wanted to do it or not... as there are so many thing to the engine change. The most important is the feasibility of such a change, was it worth it or not... giving technical constraint, economical constraint, political constraint, etc.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

MastanKhan said:

That used to be the practise of the 60's and before that, when fighter planes used to be built around the engine---.

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No, this is your fantasy used to support your other fantasy of fitting any engine into the JF-17. The only situation that comes remotely closed to "fighter planes need not to built around the engine" is the case where the aircraft and engine are being designed concurrently. But even in this situation, the aircraft is still being designed around the engine, because the aircraft and engine are being designed around one another.

MastanKhan said:

Without having the dimensions of the new engine and the space available in the current frame, it would be silly on the part of any poster to assume that the replacement cannot be done.

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Without having detailed engineering documents of the aircraft, it is silly to assert said replacement can be done. The burden of proof lies on you if you believe otherwise. Modifications of a particular aircraft to fit a particular engine are exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

MastanKhan said:

There is a limit to stupidity in a discussion---and the posters are carrying on as if the life of their first born depends upon it---it is purely an engineering problem---space available versus the diemnsions of the engine---that is it.

Click to expand...

It is purely an engineering problem, yes. Space vs. dimension of the engine being the only problem, false! Tphuang and I have told you multiple times that aerodynamics and weight are significant considerations as well, which you chose to conveniently and repeatedly ignored.

Aside from the above, there is also the question of compatibility between the engine and the intake duct. If the new engine has a higher airflow requirement than the duct is designed for, then you cannot get the maximum performance out of the engine. If the engine has a lower airflow requirement than the duct is designed for, the engine will get choked. When you want to modify the intake duct to match the performance of the engine, you will have to modify the supports outside of the duct, which so happen to be the ribs of the aircraft. Now you are talking major design change.

Then there are the issues of stress distribution and vibration modes. Even if you manage to find a new engine that have the exact dimensions and airflow requirement as the original engine, with very similar weight and thrust, you still cannot stick in the new engine, cross your fingers, and expect everything to work out. Being a different engine, it will stress the airframe slightly differently and have different vibration characteristics. You will pretty much need to perform FEM analysis from scratch to verify that the existing airframe will be compatible with the new load, and the vibration from the engine will not cause resonance within your airframe.

Simplifying the problem to available-space vs. engine-dimension shows you have absolutely no background in engineering.

MastanKhan said:

We have a flying and operational sqdrn in place against all odds---I know the capability of what Kamra can do---it has proven to us that it can take projects other thought that we could not complete.

The type of engine that paf might be looking at, doesnot require much of modifications that kamra cannot perform on its own. Even though chinese help is always welcome, in this case, it wold not be needed and neither would there be any need of getting any permission from the chinese.

Bottomline is that at this stage paf is not interested to make any changes to the engine in the current batch of first 50 planes. There is no need for it.

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This isn't about what Pakistan can or cannot do. This is about what's real and what's fantasy.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Engineer said:

Without having detailed engineering documents of the aircraft, it is silly to assert said replacement can be done. The burden of proof lies on you if you believe otherwise. Modifications of a particular aircraft to fit a particular engine are exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

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Sir,

The burden of proof doesnot lie with me. It is a millitary project with extreme secrecy at this stage and for which you are not going to get much information. Accept the information with a grain of salt---otherwise write whatever you want to write.

There will be no links provided and no skecthes available to you---but we do know that the chinese and the russians are working hard on their engines---the french have one as well. The russian and the chinese is a possible shoe-in----the french needs some modification whick kamra will handle if the need arises---at this stage, it doesnot seem likely at all. RD 93 is doing the job very well indeed.

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Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

mean_bird said:

I don't know why there is a fuss about engine change
For the time being, PAF is only actively looking for avionics - radar + weapons for the next batch, while they absorb the current ones. And for that, the necessary work would be done in-house at Kamra while some the integration firms would also be responsible for some integration and possible consultancy.

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What do you mean, absorb the current one? FYI, China is providing Pakistan batch kits to assemble the JF17 including the avionics, and radar. There is no tech transfer of the avionics. Pakistan won't "absorb" anything except building some sections of the air frame.

Provide some proof that Pakistan is "absorbing" the CHINESE avionics/radar! Or stop adding to the b.s. in this thread again. Last time, you guys B.S.ed that Pakistan can re-engineer the FC1 to fit a Western engine, without any proof whatsoever!

Stop the B.S!!