new 60 ton tank for the PLA

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Formation of battalion sized units has been happening in the US for years and is part of a worldwide shift towards a easily deployable and efficient fighting force. It certainly says nothing about the most likely areas of conflict for the PLA.

I dont have an opinion on the most likely areas of conflict,but in answer to the first question, dismantling remaining tank divisions and forming battalion battlegroups instead,brings them in line with modern thinking and possibly a change in doctrine on how and where tanks will be utilised in battle.
 
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tch1972

Junior Member
I would respectfully disagree with your view of modern ground tactics Rhino..

You reference Israel vs. Lebannon however the handfull of tank losses in that battle does not demonstrate AT Troops as a trump to MBT's.

Israel did not use momentum and push into Lebannon because of various political reasons. If they had committed to an armor blitz into Lebannon proper you would see a different result.

Current trends have actually re-shown the value of Battle Tanks. Look at Canada in the current Afgan conflict:

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IFV's are just not enough.


my opinion is Merkava did not fared badly at all. HEAT plasma jet killed by penetrating the hull and detonate the shells stored within the tank. In most cases i see, the ATGM did not cause a secondary explosion and most of the tanks were not totally destroyed. in actual fact many crews survived.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
摆脱俄式风格:强大而梦幻的中国99式坦克

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送交者: wf0rum 2010年03月16日22:27:58 于 [世界军事论坛] 发送悄悄话

  摆脱俄式风格:强大而梦幻的中国99式坦克

  美国最新一批上台的中国问题分析员,美国国家防务亚洲问题分析评测顾问卡尔索罗斯认为:中国解放军目前早已开始批量列装的中国产T99式主战坦克,它的作战能力已经超越了我们所能承载的想象。

  卡尔索罗斯认为:中国研制99坦克时,并没有按照俄罗斯专家提议的方式,”以俄罗斯T90M为蓝本”。中国人希望他的下一代主战坦克是完全自主的产品,而 99式坦克,并没有沿袭俄罗斯坦克的一贯风格,他似乎更加接近西方化的产物。对比豹2A6我们会清楚知道,99式中国坦克,炮塔装甲为前倾角斜面设计,这是已经被世界公认的最好的前端炮塔防御。

  在其动力系统上,中国目前开始为其换装1500匹的大功率发动机替换早期使用的 1200匹发动机。这将会进一步提高它本身已经具备了极高的作战机动性能。目前,根据中国官方媒体公开数字,它的最大公路时速为80公里。最大行程为 600公里。越野作战机动时速不小于55公里。这样的机动性能无论是俄罗斯的T90,还是美国陆军目前装备的最先进的M1A2主战坦克都无法媲美。

  火力控制系统,这是中国人最大的成就之一,他们赋予了99式新型的整体组合形式的猎-歼是指挥仪作战控制系统,而更加令人惊奇的是,中国99式坦克在其炮塔后安装了一部,激光顶置系统,与俄罗斯产的”卫士1″型外观十分类似,但是,依据中国官方报道以及我们目前所知道的资料来看,他并非是”完全的仿制品”。早在中国研制90式装甲车阶段,中国就曾在其中一个型号的变种车上,安置了一部自行设计的2代激光视觉对抗系统。他的主要作用是,协助主战坦克,在战区内,以软手段摧毁对手的光-瞄系统,包含了红外,紫外,微光。等系统。因此,这等于中国人给予了99式坦克一个,”挖别人眼球”的恐怖能力。他的最大作用距离,目前来看看法不依。中国官方自称作用距离2000米。而来自俄罗斯的报道称2500米。但是,美国陆军装备主要供应公司,凯迪拉克盖奇公司在 2003年引进的俄罗斯产品的试验中表明,在良好气候条件下,它可以最大作用3500米。与德国莱茵金属公司的主炮距离相同。在2级以上复杂气候下,他可以最大作用2800米。与2代微光成像系统相同。这样看来,中国人可以在与其主炮相同的作用距离上,先期于你,摧毁你的”眼球”。

  目前,在世界上最知名的主战坦克中,类似法国的格克莱尔,美国陆军的艾特拉姆斯,德国豹2A6,英国的战者2,日本90式等主战坦克,他们主要的作战手段与观瞄措施,最大作用距离良好天气下,不超越2200米。而美国陆军的M1A2主战坦克的夜视系统,最大为1800米。中国人与俄国人具有同样地可怕思维,他们认为,先期摧毁对手的眼球,使你称为他们希望的”盲人”,在轻易的把你干掉!这种武器可以最大程度的毁伤人的视网膜系统。对于光瞄系统,微光系统,激光测距系统都是具有100%的杀伤能力。而一旦被其照射,10-15秒内,人的视网膜可以被完全刺穿。导致永久性失明。而战车的光瞄系统,将在20-30秒内遭到完全的损毁。可以说它是未来制造”残废军人”的最好的标准制式武器。

  在火力系统上,中国人的思维比俄罗斯人显然要高明许多。中国产125mm滑膛坦克炮,是99式主要的打击手段。俄罗斯人习惯在坦克里面安装一种奇怪的发射结构,即可以发射炮射导弹。但是,美国陆军在70年代研制的 M70验证车上,充分说明了炮射导弹的局限性。当时美国陆军使用的”橡胶棍”导弹比俄罗斯目前使用的”干燥棒”导弹性能上要好很多。但是,依旧不能满足需要。而中国人的智慧是难以评价的。他们近乎结合了这两者的优点,为他的99式坦克安装了一套98式末端制导炮射动能炮弹系统,中国人自称为:末端制导炮弹系统。而这种炮弹的制导方式,与炮射导弹差别很大,类似美国陆军目前依旧在使用的155mm”铜斑蛇”炮弹。但是制导方式有所不同。它是以末端的惯性制导以及,弹头周边的喷射孔,来实施末端机动,无需坦克进行发射后照射跟踪。

  中国99式坦克,战斗全重51吨,是目前中国解放军最重的主战坦克。而他的装甲防御采用,3层装甲复合防御结构,很明显这是接见了美国陆军目前采用的最新的M1A2HA”安全结构”的设计理念。在炮塔后部,明显安置了带有隔舱的扬弹机舱,这是接见了来自海湾战争期间,联合部队打击伊拉克陆军装备的俄罗斯产T72型坦克的”炮塔内部2次效应”的结果。前部主装甲目前来看,中国人自称850mm。但是,按照巴基斯坦军方媒体报道称:1000-1150mm接近了我们装备M1A2HA。完全超越了俄罗斯的T90。在其最外部是披挂式装甲,2层为匀质钢装甲,这种钢材,是中国人自行研制与结合引进德国莱茵金属提炼技术,研制的新型C级钢板,炭渣电解度很高。韧性比中国以前使用的主战坦克的钢材,要好出许多。内部是带有凯芙拉陶瓷装甲间隔内层。在最后的里部,还有一种,中国人习惯使用的”防中子内衬”。

  最大的遗憾!中国99式坦克采用的底盘系统,这种底盘是中国早期研制的T72式坦克的发展型。而与中国自行研制的在80-90年代中前期的”威名显赫”的 T85M1990的底盘十分却难以相比。但是,承载能力,动力悬挂系统上,做了很大的改进。德国《军事技术》媒体,曾经在88-91年期间的某个时期,详细报道过T85II坦克。主要因为它装备了德国MTU公司的动力系统。目前,巴基斯坦使用与生产的”哈立德2000″主战坦克,实际上就是早期中国的 T85IIM改进型号。而中国90式坦克,是一个难以值得称赞的物种。他的缺陷太大。因此,巴基斯坦在定型”哈立德”时期,参考了以上两种坦克。最终聪明的避开了中国人的误导!选择了前者。看来这一次中国人再一次严重看低了自己的研制水平能力。

  目前,中国99式坦克,已经大量开始猎装。依据目前所知的数据来看,他至少装备了1-2个中国解放军的陆军装甲师。而它将被用于取代目前中国拥有的数量高达4500辆的T55/59 式,2400辆的T69式,750辆T79式坦克。这些坦克目前几乎不可能在现在作战环境下,有什么好的发挥。只能是作为对手的”靶车”。而最新的消息显示,中国人目前在其国内的西北地带,秘密研制的T2000型主战坦克,很可能安装有1门135mm或者140mm的火炮。而在00-01年早期,那里传出了2次炮射炸膛的消息。其主要原因是,中国在那个时期,还没有开始引进德国与法国电解钢提炼技术,自行研制的炮管钢材,耐热度与耐高温冲击力度,严重不足。而04年中国分别与法国MCT,德国莱茵金属,签署了引进提炼技术。因此,在后期中国研制140mm坦克炮上,取得了成功。如果2000坦克真的使用 140mm主炮,很可能中国人又要创造一个新的不可思议的奇迹了。

  中国99式坦克的其他弱点的存在的,他的战区-车内指挥系统,并不完善,目前中国陆军使用的901B军用装甲车电台,以及975C军用GPS车载接受系统,其性能稳定与连接能力,都是处于问题阶段。泰国在采购中国85式装甲车以后,首先要求就是更换掉中国产88B车载电台。原因是,性能低下,不能很好适应变化的环境。而99式目前装甲性能来看,还是存在一定缺陷,中国人不敢于主张研制装备先进的贫油装甲技术。以及穿甲技术。这是它最大的遗憾与缺陷。125mm火炮初速动能较低,这是俄罗斯与中国人都无法回避的。它没有目前美国陆军以北约盟军使用的120mm滑膛炮的初速能力。因此,中国在加紧研制140mm坦克炮,而俄罗斯在加紧研制135mm口径火炮,就完全可以说明问题。

  但是,中国99式坦克,一旦中国政府批准下,可以出口国外的话,不足250百万美元的价钱可以买到与西方相媲美的坦克,他无疑在亚洲,中东阿拉伯,非洲国家将引起不小的轰动与震撼。巴基斯坦很可能是他第一个主要的最大的用户!
 

Inst

Captain
IMO, I'd support a 140mm or higher tank gun, for the following reasons, but I'll advise against displaying it publicly afterwards.

First, the PLA currently does not face a threat from an adversary where 140mm tank guns are necessary. The Indians cannot get their Arjuns over the mountains, the Russians are currently friendly, the Vietnamese don't have heavy tank forces and tanks would be bogged down in the jungle, and the North Koreans can already be subdued by the ZTZ-99, although the PLA is not supposed to be capable of defeating the North Koreans single-handedly due to logistics issues and difficult terrain. However, in the future, who knows what may happen? Sino-Russian relations can break down in the next 10 to 20 years, the Indians may end up capturing Tibet, the Americans may end up having a strong military presence in Central Asia, or the Taiwanese may import M1A2s as a replacement for their M60s.

In such a situation, having 140mm tank gun technology ready would be a boon, and having 140mm tank technology would present an advantage, as it would be able to penetrate modern composite armor or composite armor + ERA mixtures, whereas the Type 99 variant or replacement would be resistant to 120mm shots, perhaps even DU shots, with transparent alumina composites covered with ERA.

The main problem with such a thing is that China is a weak country with socio-political problems, an economy one third the size of its main competitor, relatively low levels of technology, and relatively poor human capital. If the Chinese unleash a 140mm tank, while it would head off future threats, it would also antagonize the neighbors and give fuel to China-threat partisans. Even worse, it might unleash an arms race in the region, forcing China, with its currently inferior economy (until 2025), to spend more money than it wishes on its military.

My position, then, would be that it would be good for China to develop the technology for a next-generation tank. Having a 140mm tank in development, with various subcomponents (turret, autoloader, up-rated engine) tied to Type-99 testbeds, would allow China to respond if needed to future threats, while at the same time, not antagonizing the neighbors. If at any time it appears that any of the situations are deteriorating (Taiwan/Russia/India-Tibet/Afghanistan), then it would be time to assemble the various subcomponents of the 140mm tank and get it rolling out of the factories, but until that time approaches, no one will be intimidated by Chinese super-tanks.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
IMO, I'd support a 140mm or higher tank gun, for the following reasons, but I'll advise against displaying it publicly afterwards.

First, the PLA currently does not face a threat from an adversary where 140mm tank guns are necessary. The Indians cannot get their Arjuns over the mountains, the Russians are currently friendly, the Vietnamese don't have heavy tank forces and tanks would be bogged down in the jungle, and the North Koreans can already be subdued by the ZTZ-99, although the PLA is not supposed to be capable of defeating the North Koreans single-handedly due to logistics issues and difficult terrain. However, in the future, who knows what may happen? Sino-Russian relations can break down in the next 10 to 20 years, the Indians may end up capturing Tibet, the Americans may end up having a strong military presence in Central Asia, or the Taiwanese may import M1A2s as a replacement for their M60s.

In such a situation, having 140mm tank gun technology ready would be a boon, and having 140mm tank technology would present an advantage, as it would be able to penetrate modern composite armor or composite armor + ERA mixtures, whereas the Type 99 variant or replacement would be resistant to 120mm shots, perhaps even DU shots, with transparent alumina composites covered with ERA.

The main problem with such a thing is that China is a weak country with socio-political problems, an economy one third the size of its main competitor, relatively low levels of technology, and relatively poor human capital. If the Chinese unleash a 140mm tank, while it would head off future threats, it would also antagonize the neighbors and give fuel to China-threat partisans. Even worse, it might unleash an arms race in the region, forcing China, with its currently inferior economy (until 2025), to spend more money than it wishes on its military.

My position, then, would be that it would be good for China to develop the technology for a next-generation tank. Having a 140mm tank in development, with various subcomponents (turret, autoloader, up-rated engine) tied to Type-99 testbeds, would allow China to respond if needed to future threats, while at the same time, not antagonizing the neighbors. If at any time it appears that any of the situations are deteriorating (Taiwan/Russia/India-Tibet/Afghanistan), then it would be time to assemble the various subcomponents of the 140mm tank and get it rolling out of the factories, but until that time approaches, no one will be intimidated by Chinese super-tanks.

I have to disagreed with some of what you have stated (sorry). First off... Some of your future scenario, seemed kind of unlikely to happen...

1) Sino-Russo relationship would breakoff... my question is... so what? It is not like this never happen before.
2) India taking over Tibet? That is highly unlikely, unless India wanted an all out war with China, which I don't think would happen, simply not worth it.
3) America having a strong presence in Central Asia? US already had a strong military presence all around China (Guam, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Philipines, etc), how much stronger do you want?
4) Taiwan would import M1A2? In 10 to 20 years time, M1A2 would really not be that much a threat anymore. ZTZ 99 can holds pretty well against the M1A2.

I also disagree with your assessment of current affair,

1) India couldn't get their Arjun across mountain? Why do they want to do that? To fight CHina? They have Russian tanks... plus I believe if they want, they could get American's tanks too, currently.
2) Vietnam terrain... well if this was the current situation, there is no need for 140mm gun tanks too. Because the tank will be bigger and would be heavier so it will be blogged down anyway.
3) Why do you believe that the Chinese cannot defeat the North Korean? What do you mean by not suppose to?

Then I disagree with your assessment of China's current affair.

1) China is a weak country? This is the first time in many years that I have heard this assessment. True... China had socio-political problems, but can you tell me which country can boast to have a perfect society govern by perfect politics?
2) China's economic is huge. And she had the potential to be bigger... actually you are the first person that I have heard suggesting something negative in this area. And lets take a step back... even if CHina's economic is not as strong as her competitors, it is enough to develope a tank (actually they even had much more expensive project in development.).

Lastly... I believe u are afraid of an arm race... but I don't think by openly admitting to developing a tank would cause an arm race... come on, they have openly admitted to building aircraft carriers, modernizing their air force and navy... as compare to these... a tank is the last thing on the mind of her competitors.

(PS, not that I don't support building the heavy tank.)
 

cloyce

Junior Member
I think the discussion is going no where.
Today's army are no more a sigle-platform based army, the integration between different weapon systems is far more decisive in battle.

For example, tank armours are designed to resist against other tank's cannon and small/portable anti-tank missile. But, there is not a single tank in this world that could withstand an air dropped anti-tank weapon, since these bombs are much bigger than any tank fired projectile.

So, in my opinion. In open field battles. It's far more intelligent to concentrate resources in active-defence tecnology and elettronic deceiving countermeasures.
For example, it would be a suicide for today's warships to rely exclusively on passive armour defense. A cruise missile may not be able to sink a warship with one shoot, but it could disable its radars and weapon system.
In the same way, tank armour may protect its crew, but are we sure that after a direct hit, it will mantain its full combat capabilities? Today's sersors and aiming systems are very precise and fragile.

In the urban warfare things are different. Heavy tanks can still play a big role.
In close range guerrilla fightings, your tank may expect attacks from all directions, your tank may be supported by infantry, so the use of active defence system and ERA-armour might be dangerous to them, indeed in this case surrounding your tank with heavy composite plate is a good idea.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Inst that was the most far-fetched idea i have ever heard of. how can the development of a 140mm cannon have so much socio-politico and strategic implications? are you kidding me? if you were talkin about aircraft carrier or nukes those arguments might become more valid....not really but close enough.
 

Inst

Captain
Challenge: you have a source for that? That seems to be some random posting from a forum, with fanboy speculation (US composite armor with DU inserts are incredibly difficult to destroy, and in real life, you're more likely to be destroyed before you can blind a gunner or a weapons system with a dazzler). Some of the matter seems quite favorable, and since my Chinese is shaky, would you mind correcting some points?

There seems to be a segment describing an anti-tank missile. If I'm correct, it's talking about a terminally-guided kinetic ATGM, but I'm not really clear on what it's discussing. The part about "rubber sticks" and "dry sticks" is also hard to understand.

rhino123/pla101prc:

I'm discussing hypotheticals. My point of view is that at the current point there is no need for a 140mm gun, but the future may necessitate it, so that it's best to have a development program while not paying the money for full-scale production, which along the way, scares the neighbosr.

About your first point, there's conflict between China and Russia over Siberia, but it's one of those things that sound interesting in the media but have no relevance. With the recent North Korean port lease, the Chinese no longer need Vladisvostok to provide a port for the northeastern provinces. However, you never know what could happen between China and Russia. Russia still has a massive army, and in many respects its military ability is still more modern than China's. Russia still has the larger tank fleet, more self-propelled howitzers, better logistics ability, and has a vast nuclear arsenal.

But potential flashpoints... who knows? Maybe Putin will drop dead and a color revolution will occur in Russia and a pro-US government will be installed. It's not likely, which is why it's not a contigency that would require 140mm tank development, but in the case it does happen then it would necessitate better tanks.

In the case of India taking over Tibet; it's also rather unlikely, but if it does happen then the Indians will control the high ground, as well as the source of the Changjiang and I believe the Pearl and Mekong?

Regarding Central Asia, the United States, outside of Afghanistan, with which China shares a narrow border, does not have troops on Chinese land borders. North Korea buffers South Korea; Japan, Guam, Taiwan (I don't believe US troops are still stationed there in significant numbers, are they?), the Philipines, all of these are separated by ocean. The United States has naval superiority, but they'd have to obtain a beachhead and at the end of the day they can be pushed back to sea. A lot more trouble than having troops on the other side of a border in a sovereign state.

Regarding the M1A2, the M1A2 is still ahead of the ZTZ-99 in the sense that it has a Western 120mm gun, which when loaded with DU still has significantly higher firepower than Eastern-bloc 125mm gun. Apparently, this was a design flaw the Soviets were racing to fix but plopped dead before they could implement it. The M1A2 also runs some maintenance-intensive, heavy, or expensive silicon carbide / depleted uranium composite armor, which is probably twice (or more!) as effective as the transparent alumina armor on the Type 99, given that transparent alumina is supposed to be three times as effective as hard steel and that silicon carbide by itself is supposed to be five times as effective as hard steel. The power plant is also on schedule for replacement by a more efficient variant, which should drop the weight back down to 60 or so tons, reduce fuel consumption, and increase range. That potentially means that the technology is ready for even more powerful power plants.

As to India, India feels that Tibet's "freedom" is their security, which is to say, right now, the Chinese hold the high ground against them and have a reasonable level of fortification over the headwaters of the... I believe it's the Brahmaputra. Remember that racket they threw up a while ago when the Chinese were considering diverting the headwaters for the North-South Water Diversion project? There's also a lot of indigenous support for the Tibetan independence movement, and they host the government-in-exile. Further, the Indians feel that the Chinese are encircling them, with closer relations with their neighbors (that's partially India's fault for attempting to play hegemon in its region), so that punching out Tibet and making it either a buffer state or an Indian satellite is the best way to turn the tables on the PRC.

Vietnam is pointless; the borders have been agreed upon, and while I have a lot of black swan scenarios I'm not expecting another border war with Vietnam.

Regarding North Korea, the PLA is historically bad at logistics; if the Chinese had a better logistics train they would have defeated the UN forces in Korea, but they didn't, so... we're all enjoying our Korean Wave pop culture, aren't we? Regarding North Korea, the North Koreans have a very militarized state; given the choice, they'd rather starve their people than abandon their guns. Further, the terrain there is very hilly; it's what destroyed the Sui Dynasty, humiliated the Tang dynasty, forced the Ming Dynasty to send up southern Chinese armies instead of northern Chinese armies as the latter was optimized for steppe warfare, not fighting in hilly and muddy terrain, and turned the Korean War into a stalemate as neither the UN nor the PVA + NKPA could use armor to good effect.

I'm getting really tired, so let me continue on other points later. Sorry.
 

jackbh

Junior Member
Chinese 125mm gun is not really a Russian 125mm gun. We have talked about that for years. That topic should be resting peacefully in it's grave and not be disturbed and brought back.

Maybe you should try updating your thinking then you won't be so tired. Your thinking is old and outdated.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Regarding North Korea, the PLA is historically bad at logistics; if the Chinese had a better logistics train they would have defeated the UN forces in Korea, but they didn't, so... we're all enjoying our Korean Wave pop culture, aren't we? Regarding North Korea, the North Koreans have a very militarized state; given the choice, they'd rather starve their people than abandon their guns. Further, the terrain there is very hilly; it's what destroyed the Sui Dynasty, humiliated the Tang dynasty, forced the Ming Dynasty to send up southern Chinese armies instead of northern Chinese armies as the latter was optimized for steppe warfare, not fighting in hilly and muddy terrain, and turned the Korean War into a stalemate as neither the UN nor the PVA + NKPA could use armor to good effect.

First, you are basing your assessment on Korean war, which was some fifty years ago. It is not the same case now. They have much better logistic both hardware and software.

Plus what is the main goal of the CHinese in the Korean war? Really to help a brother in need? I don't think so. They are there to prevent the UN from crossing the Yalu river and into china. And that goal was met.

There really is no need to bring in all the dynastical analysis into this thread. If by now the CHinese hadn't learn from events that happen hundreds of years ago, she would be heading for destruction.

The bottomline is, CHina had much better capability then her troops in the fifties and her men are better trained as compared to before.
 
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