JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Zahid said:

I never asserted that Pakistan would or could change the engine on its own. You are just itching to start a war of words.

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Ok, now you admit that Pakistan could not change the engine on it's own. Read your original words. You stated:


China may not be all out in support for such a change, CAC may be luke-warm about it, but if PAF wants it done, it shall be done! Nevermind if the aircraft needs to go through a fresh round of testing. If the need for such a change is perceived to be great enough, then certainly it would be done. There is no technological barrier to such a change.

Since you now admit Pakistan cannot change the engine on it's own, will you retract your original claims?

If CAC / China does not want to put in a western engine into the JF17, then it will be impossible for Pakistan to do this on their own.

This is not flaming. You must be responsible for your statements that you make on this forum. You cannot just say anything without evidence or a good logical explanation.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Munir said:

Posters love probably emotions or what if etc... Who cares. If PAF wants it then it will find cash to get it done. I doubt CAC will not use that to make alternative for export (for which they earn a lot of money). Will PAF invest heavily? Impossible. they got credit to buy first batch of JF17. they are looking for FC20 as high end to counter MRCA. If they invest in JF17 then it will be in electronics/avionics/weapons. If Chinese engine comes up then it will be only accepted if it is as good as and cheaper/better. Posters should more think about economical principles then posting garbage.

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Who are you directing this comment to? Yes, economics is an important matter. As you know, Pakistan is very limited in their finances. I think Pakistan will use their limited funds to buy as many JF17s as possible, and not waste their money on a western engine for the JF17, right? That makes no economic sense.

The remark about posting garbage should be directed to these posters who are "dreaming" about a western engine in a JF17. It is garbage to claim Pakistan can swap in a western engine on her own.

The JF17 will be using the RD93 / WS13 for a long long long time. Pakistan will be dependent on China and Russia for their engines.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Munir said:

Don't waste your time by trying to flame... Atleast post something valuable. You did bring in Iran... Wow... Very intellectual statements. Thank God you added a smile. Let me laugh back...

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Mods, please warn Munir that HE is engaging in flames. Nothing he has contributed recently is of substance. Just flames.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Lion said:

A fighter plane is designed around an engine from the begining. That is why WS-13 which suppose to replace RD-93 need to be design from start of almost similiar dimension.

As for the example you given. You need to find a almost similiar dimension engine in order to do the swap. As some member mention, Pakistan has no experience doing the engine swap. If it needs any modification, It has to go thru China and gets its approval. FC-1 is co-own by CAC and Pakistan. If CAC refuses, there is no way Pakistan can get a third party and go on its own.

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Hi,

Please don't base your analysis on assumption alone---older fighter planes were designed around an engine---but not all the time. Even an old dog like the phantom got modified with a more powerfull engine by the british---so did the isarelis with their mirage 5's.

Same thing with the jf 17---it has a modular design for not only for electronics but for couple of other engines in its class.

Don't want to believe it or don't want to agree with it---that is fine.

And yes---pak aeronautical complex Kamra has the ability to do the needed modifications to the JF 17 when and if they are needed. Even though paf is very happy with the current engine and are keeping in mind the higher output RD 93 that the company is testing.

Again, there is an issue of selective reading here as well---pak is looking at other engines---but not neccessarily to install them at this time. It is all up in the air---just like the electronic package---there were 4 contenders---. The chinese, the british, the french and the italians. The british withdrew, the italians are lagging behind, the chinese garbbed the order of the first 50 and the french are up and getting ready for the next batch.

Similiarly pak has floated the same idea. The chinese are working on their engine, the russians have one in the offering in the coming future, the french are a possible contender with some minor modifications. So what is there to not understand.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

flyboy2008 said:

Mods, please warn Munir that HE is engaging in flames. Nothing he has contributed recently is of substance. Just flames.

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Hi,

It is not Munir, but it is you who is starting to badger poster. You don't want to agree it, that is well and good---there is no problem with that---. If it doesn't happen in your world, that is fine too, we don't have a problem with that, but we are moving ahead with our projects at a very fast and a successful pace.

About the jf 17---the proof is in the pudding---all the nay sayers never expected it to be in a sqdrn at this time---well it is---. This was promised to be in oct or nov of last year---and only and only 4 to5 months behind schedule for a first timer. We are extremely excited.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

thanks for defending me MK. Appreciated.

Let me explain it by another example... Here we have LCA. Designed to have Kaveri. Moved towards GE. Now if India is capable to design/manufacure/whatever with a plane which is in the same logic as JF17 (small multi role) then why is it so difficult for Pakistan to hire specialists, buy another engine and do the job? Does India posses more knowhow? I do not know. Do Indians have a huge infrastructure or history in aviation. Could be. But I do think that people here tend to defame Pakistan by thinking simplistic Pakistan can not, JF17 is not able to have or China would not allow logic. I find that typical armchair engineers. O, yes I am a real engineer. I am not trying to defame a nation nor a plane but I had expected from some posters to understand the principles of technology and economy. It is internet so we do not know who or from where they post but telling me that I am trying to flame is extremely cheap reaction. I do not contribute according mr flyboy... Well, based on what? Exactly.

Whether it had help or not, Pakistan produced a tank with parts from all over the world that is suited for the purpose while its neighbour did exactly the same and atleast its army is going to buy more then 150... Pakistan did build Babur or Ra'ad while its neighbour bought Russian missile. And there surely more examples. I am suprised that people think on the level of oneliners and start pointing fingers at senior posters. Maybe it is sort of honour cause you have a name that is known, maybe it is something else. If you wanna go into the subject then please do, but oneliners without data and then asking evidence from the other side is sounding like hypocracy.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

MastanKhan said:

Hi,

It is not Munir, but it is you who is starting to badger poster. You don't want to agree it, that is well and good---there is no problem with that---. If it doesn't happen in your world, that is fine too, we don't have a problem with that, but we are moving ahead with our projects at a very fast and a successful pace.

About the jf 17---the proof is in the pudding---all the nay sayers never expected it to be in a sqdrn at this time---well it is---. This was promised to be in oct or nov of last year---and only and only 4 to5 months behind schedule for a first timer. We are extremely excited.

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Mods, again another Flame post which there is zero substance and pure flaming.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

Munir said:

thanks for defending me MK. Appreciated.

Let me explain it by another example... Here we have LCA. Designed to have Kaveri. Moved towards GE. Now if India is capable to design/manufacure/whatever with a plane which is in the same logic as JF17 (small multi role) then why is it so difficult for Pakistan to hire specialists, buy another engine and do the job? Does India posses more knowhow? I do not know. But I do think that people here tend to defame Pakistan by thinking that it cannot, JF17 is not able to have or China would not allow logic. I find that typical armchair engineers. I am not trying to defame a nation nor a plane but I had expected from some posters to understand the principles of technology and economy. It is internet so we do not know who or from where they post but telling me that I am trying to flame is extremely cheap reaction. I do not contribute according mr flyboy... Well, based on what? Exactly.

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I don't know why you bring the LCA/India/Kaveri into this. This is a flame post. By the way, I am not Indian, so why are you trying to bring India into this flame post.

Mods, please warn against perpetuating flame posts.

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

That's an interesting point Munir. LCA still does not have a confirmed engine and so the design will have to be fine tuned once selection is finalized.

I think the difference here is that JF17 is a fully operational platform with final design specs and production tooling created and in use. The cost to modify now would potentially be high vs the benefits of using a second engine core.

It's not that it cannot be done. China developed the aircraft and could support modification if really needed; say if an embargo or some such were to occur.

But the cost to gain ratio is likely not in favor of an engine change.

Also just as an outside observer coming into this thread flyboy - it seems to be your posts which are argumentative more than discussion based. I'd bet money the mods will see it that way too so I'd drop the personal stuff.

Cheers,
Zool

flyboy2008 said:

I don't know why you bring the LCA/India/Kaveri into this. This is a flame post. By the way, I am not Indian, so why are you trying to bring India into this flame post.

Mods, please warn against perpetuating flame posts.

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Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

you said the words: But the cost to gain ratio is likely not in favor of an engine change.

Could not agree more.

Btw
IAF mig27 with al31


SAF mirage f1 with rd33