new 60 ton tank for the PLA

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
i find some of the arguement for developement of heavy tank grossly absurb. Just because the industry had the capability and means to produce the heavy tank... doesn't mean China must produce such tank. It is like saying I have the money and means to buy a mercedes and I must buy it.

Like what I have stated before, the strategies and tactics are changing, heavy tank with huge cannon tends to make movement of the system slow. And Heavy tank eat fuel for breakfast.

There is a reason why the US and NATO (despite having the technology and means) do not want to build HEavy Tank.

Resources should be pulled in to develope and produce gunships and UCAV instead of wasting on a technology of the past.

The elite group armies of CHina are already well armed and equipped with the best, what they lack, seriously is helicopter support and more transport planes and even fighters... but not Heavy Tank.
 

jackbh

Junior Member
Any country should exploit it's strength to the fullest. China's strength in technology is not building advance helicopters. They have much more know how and technology building tanks than they do on helos. So if they could build a much bigger and heavier tank they might as well go for it. There is definitely not any cookie cutter doctrine out there that says you have to build your army and your equipment base a any certain or exact model. You do things base on your strength.
 

cloyce

Junior Member
China's current priorities are : Aviation, Space assets, Missile forces and Navy.

There is no hurry in building helos or new tanks, really.
Currently, there is not a single neighbour of China that can pose threats to PLA ground forces, and won't be any in the near future.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Any country should exploit it's strength to the fullest. China's strength in technology is not building advance helicopters. They have much more know how and technology building tanks than they do on helos. So if they could build a much bigger and heavier tank they might as well go for it. There is definitely not any cookie cutter doctrine out there that says you have to build your army and your equipment base a any certain or exact model. You do things base on your strength.

Nobody is asking China to base on any exact model... China had her own military doctrine. But what it actually matters is the effectiveness of the doctrine and tactics. Modern battle is fought at a much quicker pace than older battles that could drag on for months and months - even for years.

In this modern era, heavy tanks no matter how much the developer wanted to boast about her ability was actually sitting ducks to much more mobile forces.

And I seriously doubt that the next battlefield will be in CHina but in other nations, and no matter where you look (except for Mongolia and part of Russia), terrain make it quite impossible for China's ultra heavy tank (if they wanted to use these type of weapon). Plus if you looked at Lebanon war and how many tank casaulty the Israelis suffered, you will get a picture on how 'effective' tanks are against well trained anti-tank units.

Heavy tank, being heavier and bigger, were easier targets for enemy's anti-tank units. So what is the point, other than making these weapon - highly mobile artillery platform.

We acknowledge that China's strenght is in their ground force and not helicopter building, but at this present time and since war is not brewing, I think China should be spending resources in helicopter developement and training, rather than developing something that is grossly outdated.

Know that the main opponents now, if there happen to be a war, are all well equipped with anti-tank weaponries and had their own very effective tanks too.

If China happen to want to build and deploy these tanks in great number, then I would suspect that their tactics are still quite outdated and are still on an defensive nature... The People War Doctrine... and maybe they can win if the war is waged in China... but casualty rate will be high... not really a bright idea.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
China's current priorities are : Aviation, Space assets, Missile forces and Navy.

There is no hurry in building helos or new tanks, really.
Currently, there is not a single neighbour of China that can pose threats to PLA ground forces, and won't be any in the near future.

I agree with you in your deduction. Current priority is given to air-force, space technology, missile technology and navy, but not the army. However carry on forward, or looking into the army by itself, I predicted that the main priority is still helo and digitalise military.

The main challenge now for the Chinese are to fully integrated their various arms together into one singular military.
 

Zool

Junior Member
I would respectfully disagree with your view of modern ground tactics Rhino..

You reference Israel vs. Lebannon however the handfull of tank losses in that battle does not demonstrate AT Troops as a trump to MBT's.

Israel did not use momentum and push into Lebannon because of various political reasons. If they had committed to an armor blitz into Lebannon proper you would see a different result.

Current trends have actually re-shown the value of Battle Tanks. Look at Canada in the current Afgan conflict:

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IFV's are just not enough.


Nobody is asking China to base on any exact model... China had her own military doctrine. But what it actually matters is the effectiveness of the doctrine and tactics. Modern battle is fought at a much quicker pace than older battles that could drag on for months and months - even for years.

In this modern era, heavy tanks no matter how much the developer wanted to boast about her ability was actually sitting ducks to much more mobile forces.

And I seriously doubt that the next battlefield will be in CHina but in other nations, and no matter where you look (except for Mongolia and part of Russia), terrain make it quite impossible for China's ultra heavy tank (if they wanted to use these type of weapon). Plus if you looked at Lebanon war and how many tank casaulty the Israelis suffered, you will get a picture on how 'effective' tanks are against well trained anti-tank units.

Heavy tank, being heavier and bigger, were easier targets for enemy's anti-tank units. So what is the point, other than making these weapon - highly mobile artillery platform.

We acknowledge that China's strenght is in their ground force and not helicopter building, but at this present time and since war is not brewing, I think China should be spending resources in helicopter developement and training, rather than developing something that is grossly outdated.

Know that the main opponents now, if there happen to be a war, are all well equipped with anti-tank weaponries and had their own very effective tanks too.

If China happen to want to build and deploy these tanks in great number, then I would suspect that their tactics are still quite outdated and are still on an defensive nature... The People War Doctrine... and maybe they can win if the war is waged in China... but casualty rate will be high... not really a bright idea.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
i find some of the arguement for developement of heavy tank grossly absurb. Just because the industry had the capability and means to produce the heavy tank... doesn't mean China must produce such tank. It is like saying I have the money and means to buy a mercedes and I must buy it.

Then you are clearly misunderstanding the concept. National defense is not a luxury you can choose to indulge in, its an insurance policy to safeguard your national security and promote national interest.

A more appropriate analogy would be a rich man living in the rough neighborhood choosing not to upgrade his home security when he can easily afford it. It would be short sighted and could cost you far more then what you could hope to save.

Like what I have stated before, the strategies and tactics are changing, heavy tank with huge cannon tends to make movement of the system slow. And Heavy tank eat fuel for breakfast.

There is a reason why the US and NATO (despite having the technology and means) do not want to build HEavy Tank.

That's being lazy to be polite. Each country has its own unique mix of strengths and weaknesses and it would be folly of the highest order to blindly copy the strategy and doctrine of others with no considering of your own position, environment and needs.

Yes, there are reasons why the US and NATO are moving towards lighter tanks for their next gen of vehicles, and some of them is because the US and NATO already have heavy MBTs that they will continue to use for many many years to come and they want something lighter, faster and cheaper to supplement them. The kind of enemies the western powers are expected to be facing is also a key factor in their choices. China has a very different existing force structure and potential future enemies.

China already have a light and mobile armored force, which could be supplemented with a heavy MBT that can do things lighter tanks can't. A heavy tank might be slow, but its powerful and resilient, perfect for punching a hole in enemy lines so the lighter, faster armored elements can exploit the breach to use their mobility and range to the full.

Mohammed Ali was a great boxer because he had a killer punch as well as dancing feet.

Resources should be pulled in to develope and produce gunships and UCAV instead of wasting on a technology of the past.

Why impose such restrictions on yourself in the first place? What makes you think China can't do all those things at the same time?

The elite group armies of CHina are already well armed and equipped with the best, what they lack, seriously is helicopter support and more transport planes and even fighters... but not Heavy Tank.

That is just an opinion.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Then you are clearly misunderstanding the concept. National defense is not a luxury you can choose to indulge in, its an insurance policy to safeguard your national security and promote national interest.

A more appropriate analogy would be a rich man living in the rough neighborhood choosing not to upgrade his home security when he can easily afford it. It would be short sighted and could cost you far more then what you could hope to save.



That's being lazy to be polite. Each country has its own unique mix of strengths and weaknesses and it would be folly of the highest order to blindly copy the strategy and doctrine of others with no considering of your own position, environment and needs.

Yes, there are reasons why the US and NATO are moving towards lighter tanks for their next gen of vehicles, and some of them is because the US and NATO already have heavy MBTs that they will continue to use for many many years to come and they want something lighter, faster and cheaper to supplement them. The kind of enemies the western powers are expected to be facing is also a key factor in their choices. China has a very different existing force structure and potential future enemies.

China already have a light and mobile armored force, which could be supplemented with a heavy MBT that can do things lighter tanks can't. A heavy tank might be slow, but its powerful and resilient, perfect for punching a hole in enemy lines so the lighter, faster armored elements can exploit the breach to use their mobility and range to the full.

Mohammed Ali was a great boxer because he had a killer punch as well as dancing feet.



Why impose such restrictions on yourself in the first place? What makes you think China can't do all those things at the same time?



That is just an opinion.


For the Nato and the US, their opponents are mainly countries with limited air-coverage, that would make their MBT seemed viable and feasible. However if you looked China's adversaries... they are equipped with good air force, helicopters gunships and stuff like that. Tanks are basically extremely vulnerable in this type of warfare.

I agreed with you that, "National defense is not a luxury you can choose to indulge in, its an insurance policy to safeguard your national security and promote national interest." however one must look at what type of equipment to invest in. Tank certainly is not one of them... cruise missile, ballistic missiles, UCAV, helicopters, fighters and naval systems are to be given higher priority. Also overall integration of the existing military system.

Finally, lets not forget, future war shouldn't be fought in CHinese land... as I have emphasised time and again... and I will do it one more time, war should not be fought in Chinese land. It is stupid and irresponsible to do it. Because the destruction will be to China and not other nations.

Heavy tank make transporting them to other nation pretty difficult... and costly... and during war, fuel is a problem... and china is not known to have lots of it available. So why waste all these resources?

If as many had and is still thinking, China is still mainly on a defensive nature that they need heavy tank, then seriously I am shaking my head at such decision...
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Nobody is asking China to base on any exact model... China had her own military doctrine. But what it actually matters is the effectiveness of the doctrine and tactics. Modern battle is fought at a much quicker pace than older battles that could drag on for months and months - even for years.

In this modern era, heavy tanks no matter how much the developer wanted to boast about her ability was actually sitting ducks to much more mobile forces.

Then you seriously need to start thinking for yourself and actually see the reality of war instead of the ill-educated headlines of tabloids.

recent ground wars have been so quick because the opposing sides were so overwhelmingly biased. Pitch to near-peers against each other and you have a very different sort of war.

Blitzkrieg worked best when one side had a key advantage over the other. Whenever the two sides were evenly matched, Blitzkrieg breaks down into grinding attributional warfare. Look at North Africa and the entire western front in WWII.

The fundamental motto of the military is to train (and prepare) for the worst and hope for the best. Blindly copying western powers with the expectation of beating up on some hopelessly outmatched little power is not how that works.

And I seriously doubt that the next battlefield will be in CHina but in other nations, and no matter where you look (except for Mongolia and part of Russia), terrain make it quite impossible for China's ultra heavy tank (if they wanted to use these type of weapon). Plus if you looked at Lebanon war and how many tank casaulty the Israelis suffered, you will get a picture on how 'effective' tanks are against well trained anti-tank units.

And thats a very selective example of history to advance you viewpoint. Its also a woefully dated example which might give an indication that things have moved on a tad since.

Taking your Israeli example. How did the Israelis respond to those losses? Did they downgrade or upgrade the armor protection on their tanks again?

Heavy tank, being heavier and bigger, were easier targets for enemy's anti-tank units.

Thats a blissfully simplistic view of how things actually work and an almost willful avoidance of one of the key strengths of heavy tanks - their protection. For lighter tanks, a hit might equal a kill, but not necessarily so for heavier tanks with better armor protection. There are plenty of clips on utube of Merkavas taking multiple ATGM hits in far more recent conflicts and keep going.

So what is the point, other than making these weapon - highly mobile artillery platform.

If thats what you think, then it is you who clearly haven't a clue about tank warfare.

We acknowledge that China's strenght is in their ground force and not helicopter building, but at this present time and since war is not brewing, I think China should be spending resources in helicopter developement and training, rather than developing something that is grossly outdated.

OMG! There are weapons that can kill tanks, they must be grossly outdated! Lets develop attack helos. Wait, there are counters against them too, they must also be outdated!

Please. The entire history of warfare is a constant race between ever more complex evolutions of the spear and shield. Advancement in one does not make the other obsolete.

Know that the main opponents now, if there happen to be a war, are all well equipped with anti-tank weaponries and had their own very effective tanks too.

Even more reason to develop a new tank that can face such threats and survive.

If China happen to want to build and deploy these tanks in great number, then I would suspect that their tactics are still quite outdated and are still on an defensive nature... The People War Doctrine... and maybe they can win if the war is waged in China... but casualty rate will be high... not really a bright idea.

I don't mean to cause offense, but that's just pathetic.

True insight comes from an objective evaluation of facts to try and form a theory that best fit with reality. Less detached minds might try and make facts fit an existing theory they already believe in, but rarely do you see people trying to deny facts with an argument as ridiculous as 'if they do this then they don't know what they are doing'.

What hubris to think you know better then thousands of others who have devoted their lives to understanding tank warfare and what folly to think others are stupid enough to think that the development of a heavy tank is an extension of the people's war.

How that even make sense is beyond me. As building bigger, better and more expansive tanks that you send in in far smaller numbers then light tanks is the polar opposite of the people's war doctrine.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
For the Nato and the US, their opponents are mainly countries with limited air-coverage, that would make their MBT seemed viable and feasible. However if you looked China's adversaries... they are equipped with good air force, helicopters gunships and stuff like that. Tanks are basically extremely vulnerable in this type of warfare.

And that is why China has placed so much emphasis and resources on the development of its own air force and air defense.

However, recent western wars have also shown that air power is no replacement for boots on the ground if you want to win a war quickly. And for that, you need tanks to lead the charge.

I agreed with you that, "National defense is not a luxury you can choose to indulge in, its an insurance policy to safeguard your national security and promote national interest." however one must look at what type of equipment to invest in. Tank certainly is not one of them... cruise missile, ballistic missiles, UCAV, helicopters, fighters and naval systems are to be given higher priority. Also overall integration of the existing military system.

Just because priority should be placed on other systems is no reason to willfully neglect others. Especially when you have the resources to easily afford to improve them.

Finally, lets not forget, future war shouldn't be fought in CHinese land... as I have emphasised time and again... and I will do it one more time, war should not be fought in Chinese land. It is stupid and irresponsible to do it. Because the destruction will be to China and not other nations.

What is this ridiculous fixation that developing a heavy tank equates to preparing to fight on Chinese soil?

How does developing a heavy tank not ideally suited to Chinese home terrain equate to preparing to fight on Chinese soil? if anything, that screams the PLA's intent to look beyond the boarders of China and is making preparations to fight in different lands.

Heavy tank make transporting them to other nation pretty difficult... and costly... and during war, fuel is a problem... and china is not known to have lots of it available. So why waste all these resources?

Heavy tanks are more expensive so we shouldn't use them?! Thats a ridiculous argument. War is expensive so if thats how you think, best surrender to start with.

If as many had and is still thinking, China is still mainly on a defensive nature that they need heavy tank, then seriously I am shaking my head at such decision...

More hubris...
 
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