new 60 ton tank for the PLA

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For the second time in less than a month a member started a thread about some of the ethnic difficulties in China's past. I for one do not know the history of the ethnic strife in China. But I do know this..>>> We will not allow such discussion at SDF. The next member that starts such a thread shall be banned instantly and anyone that responds in said thread shall get a warning..or more:nono:.

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Finn McCool said:

Back on topic, I don't see a need for a 60+ ton tank for the PLA. None of China's immediate neighbors have armed forces that can threaten the PLA in land warfare, and China doesn't have the logistical capabilities to move a tank of that size overseas in large numbers. Also a tank that big doesn't fit with PLA doctrine.

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I would disagree; Russian and tanks inspired by Russian designs usually don't place a whole lot of emphasis on protection, crew survivability, and operator friendliness. The Chinese should go up to MLC 60 in order to enhance protection, and efforts should be made to enhance crew protection and operator friendliness.

Well of course China needs a heavy tank! North Korea would be tank country. The entry point close to Vladivostok is tank country. North Vietnam could be tank country, up to a certain depth. The western side of Taiwan is tank country.

China's heavy transport problem is basically solved. Rumors are the heavy transport's prototype is built or being built! Once the heavy transport is in service, China can haul its 60 ton tank anywhere in the world with an airstrip.

There is no obstacle to using 60 ton tanks in Southern China. It's not muddy, it's not a jungle, there are highways everywhere and rice patties are not everywhere. If anything Southern China is characterized by lots of steep hills with plains between.

The current incarnations of the T-99 are already world class (China's weakness is in combat helos not tanks, I think). If China puts a 140 mm gun on there, it would be even more terrifying to an opponent.


But probably more important for China is a medium weight tank like Type 96. It's easier to more to Taiwan, to Himalayas and to Central Asian mountain ranges. A revolutionary, high tech medium weight tank would probably have more immediate uses. The future trend for PLA is not to wait on its own territory to defend but to attack the opponent on China's terms.

Pointblank said:

I would disagree; Russian and tanks inspired by Russian designs usually don't place a whole lot of emphasis on protection, crew survivability, and operator friendliness. The Chinese should go up to MLC 60 in order to enhance protection, and efforts should be made to enhance crew protection and operator friendliness.

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The Russians have a reason for doing that. It fits with their doctrine, and I think it fights with China's doctrine as well. There's no reason why a less heavy tank can't still be comfortable and operator friendly, and I don't know what the interiors of the Type 99/Type 96 are like, so I can't really comment on that in regard to Chinese tanks.

With regards to protection, I would ask two questions: Is it necessary? and Does it tactically make sense?

For me, the answer to the first question is no, and the answer to the second question is not completely.

As far as being necessary, China does not geographically border any countries that it is likely to fight and that it would need a 60+ ton tank to prosecute a war against effectively. Against India, armored combat would be limited due to geography and India doesn't have any 60+ ton tanks (the Arjun is 58 tons and they don't have very many of them). I also find it difficult to see China getting involved in the near future in any overseas conflicts that would require much heavy armor.

Tactically, I feel that Chinese armored doctrine is still more suited to the fast moving tank and artillery punch followed by a massive breakthrough/exploitation, i.e. Soviet Doctrine, than a more Western combined arms-based approach. In urban situations though a large tank would be useful, and I think Chinese tactical doctrine will change and larger tanks will have more of a role to play.

So to conclude, I'd say that it would be nice to have a 60 ton tank in the PLA's arsenal, but it's not an effective allocation of resources and not needed at this time. There will probably come a day when the PLA has a larger tank, but I don't think right now is the time.

Edit: This is kind of a dumb question, the Type 99 A2 is 58 tons anyway

Indeed part of the rumor may be about the 99A2 or the successor for it in development.

First, china is bordering Korea, Russia and Japan, as well as, by proxy (Korea, Afghanistan) the USA.
Not too mention India and Vietnam, which both posses significant military capacities.
It may easily have one of the most "military capable" neighbourhoods in the world, and I can certainly see a role for heavy MBTs in armed conflicts with Russia or either Korean state.
Secondly, I only visited northern China, but that is Tank country, even historically proven tank country.

Concerning "Chinese not grapsing the concept of modern warfare", first, "ancient warfare" tended to be a fair bit more modern than most people would think. Also, China still has more "recent combat experience" against credible foes than most western countrys, also, it would be most unwise to asume that the people`s generals do not read military publications.

No, China is not bordering Japan. You gotta check your map again.

BTW 60 tons is really nothing as that is pretty close to even 99A1 with about 55 tons. The rumor is China is developing even heavier tank around 75 tons.

There is really a constraint on how heavy a tank can weigh. 60 ton is already near the limit. One just can't keep adding amour to counter the latest anti-tank weapons. It going to adversely affect the mobility and deployment of the force.

The trend I believe is to scale down the amour protection sufficient enough to stop all small arms and projectiles of up to 40mm rounds. Larger calibre weaponry like RPG, kinetics projectiles and ATGM will be dealt with by a combination of soft kill and hard kill mechanisms.

Both German Leopard and M1a2 are well over 60 tons if not over 70 tons.

it under 70 ton.

too heavy will affect mobility and consume more fuel. it means having more stops to top up and place greater demand on logistical support.

Also many bridges can't take that weight. Tanks can also sink under softer muddy terrain.