Do you think Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese?

In 1644, Wu opened the gates of the Great Wall of China at Shanhai Pass to let Manchu soldiers, enemies of the Empire which he served, into China proper.

He did not side with the Manchus until after the defensive capability of the Ming Empire had been greatly weakened and political apparatus destroyed by the rebel armies of Li Zicheng. Wu was about to join the rebel forces of Li, who had already sacked Beijing, when he heard that his concubine Chen Yuanyuan & father had been taken by Li. Enraged, he contacted and negotiated with the Manchu and their leader Dorgon, resulting in the opening of the gates of the Great Wall.[citation needed]

It is commonly believed that this act led to the ultimate destruction of the Ming Empire and the establishment of the Qing (Manchu) Dynasty.

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Many Chinese believe Wu Sangui is a traitor for Han Chinese for opening the gate in Shan Hai Guan and let Manchu conquer whole China.

But personally, I believed Wu Sangui was not a traitor in a sense. He did revolt against the Manchu in the latter with the intention to set up his own reign after Ming dynasty.

What went wrong for Wu was , he underestimate Manchu ability to rule whole China. His intention was to use Manchu power to overwhelm Li(his arch rival)before turning his attention to drive out Manchu and restore Han's Chinese rule again. Unfortunately, his Manchu rival at that time was the greatest Manchu Ruler, Kangxi. If other Manchu ruler was in reign instead of Kangxi. Zhou dynasty might have suceed and Manchu rule in China will be very shortened.

I do !

I do too.

Wu Sangui was a very selfish person. He opened the gate to the Machurians in hope that they would help him destroy the Ming dynasty and Li Zicheng and that he could become an emperor himself. Foolish of him, the Manchurians had their own little plans. And later Wu Sangui revolted against the Qing dynasty for the same reason, i.e. to become an emperor. He did not fight for the good of China and Han. He was doing all the things for himself, a typical trait of traitors, IMO.

In any sense, national interest stands above all domestic quarrels. Often you see domestic enemies unite together in the face of a foreign invasion. Yo cannot put your own political ambition above national interest. Anyone who uses foreign help in pursuit of his own glory or to fight his domestic enemy is destined to become a traitor because he/she would undoubtedly allow foreign power to kill his/her countrymen. That alone qualifies the definition of the traitor.

Well, 50-50 for me.

We can't actually says he wanted to be Emperor when he opened the gate. Or he's a traitor. We have to understand the situation he was in.

At that time, the rebels had already sacked the capital, and the inept Ming Emperor had already put himself hanging from a tree. The Ming Dynasty, had in fact, already fallen. Not a Traitor in any sense.

Secondly, The rebels may have taken the capital, but I doubt they are strong enough to stop the manchu invasion. They are just a rag-tag military force with popular low caste support, against demolirized under funded second and third rate Ming forces.

Thirdly, The rebels would behead Wu San Gui and his men, the very moment they surrender.

Lastly, how dare they steal his beloved concubine.

Now, imagine yourself in his shoes. Would you surreneder to a rebel, or an Empire that promise you longevity ?

mobydog said:

Well, 50-50 for me.

We can't actually says he wanted to be Emperor when he opened the gate. Or he's a traitor. We have to understand the situation he was in.

At that time, the rebels had already sacked the capital, and the inept Ming Emperor had already put himself hanging from a tree. The Ming Dynasty, had in fact, already fallen. Not a Traitor in any sense.

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No matter what the situation was, the conflict between Ming and Li Zicheng was a domestic matter. Chinese vs. Chinese. Even though Ming's capital was sacked, Ming was not yet destroyed. Even if Ming was destroyed at the time, China was still a sovereign nation under Han. Wu opened the gate and allowed the Manchurians to be involved. That was betrayal.

mobydog said:

Secondly, The rebels may have taken the capital, but I doubt they are strong enough to stop the manchu invasion. They are just a rag-tag military force with popular low caste support, against demolirized under funded second and third rate Ming forces.

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No matter the strength of Li's army, the fact is Wu invited Manchurians in. It was possible that Manchurians would still manage to sack the Shanhai Pass and march to Beijing and defeat Li, but that does not change the fact that Wu surrendered without a fight. This is like saying in the WWII, people knew that the Chinese army was no match to the Japanese and so there should be nothing wrong with any of them laying down their weapons and surrender without a fight.

mobydog said:

Thirdly, The rebels would behead Wu San Gui and his men, the very moment they surrender.

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No, Li planned to convince Wu to join force with him. In fact, Li sent a letter to Wu and tried to convince Wu to join him. Li may be a rebel, but he was no bum. He knew fully well the meaning of Shanhai Pass and Wu. Ming forces had been battling Manchurians for decades by that time and everyone in China knew about the Manchurians. I highly doubt that Li would kill Wu since there were many generals under Li's command who used to serve the Ming dynasty. If Li didn't kill any of them, why would he kill some one who was so much important than any of the others combined?

mobydog said:

Lastly, how dare they steal his beloved concubine.

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This is the part that annoys me the most. Why blame the woman? You think Wu who should have multiple concubines at the time truly cared about a hooker? Li Yuanyuan was, after all, a high class prostitute. Chinese historians have this high tendency to blame women for the mistakes of men. This to me is sad. At least, be a man and admit your mistakes.

mobydog said:

Now, imagine yourself in his shoes. Would you surreneder to a rebel, or an Empire that promise you longevity ?

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If it were me, I would rather be killed by the rebels than surrender to a foreign enemy. In fact, many people have done just that. Only a handful of people have chosen to align themselves with the invading foreign power and help the invaders kill his own countrymen.

Plus, he was in a much better situation than you painted him to be. With him guarding the Pass, Manchurians had absolutely no chance of getting into China. He could use his over one hundred thousand cavalry to bargain a deal with Li Zicheng and force Li to let him be on his own. There had been cases like this. Generals from the old dynasty who was guarding the border bargained with the new dynasty and become a war lord and essentially his own local emperor. Luo Yi of Tang dynasty would be a good example of that. He actually went through 3 dynasties as the local governor of Yanjing, Late chen, Sui and Tang.

So in summary, there should be NO personal excuses when it comes to maintaining national sovereignty!! Any act that allow foreign troops to enter one's country, however that would affect the life of the person who gives the order, will be considered treason. Plain and simple. This would be true in any nation on this planet. What would you call a foot soldier who surrenders to his enemy on the battlefield for fear of being killed and eventually comes back with the enemy and attack his own country?

Thread open.

Firstly I'd like to apologize to Lion for giving him a three day ban because of my ignorance of Chinese history. The ban is lifted..it never happened.

I also apoligize to all SDF members for my ignorance of Chinese history.

Our fine member, Roger604 sent me this PM;

Dear Popeye, for your information the thread that you closed has nothing to do with "ethnic strife." The events in question were seminal events in China's history, leading to the founding of the last dynasty in 1644 AD.

These events are well known and studied in school and university by every Chinese pupil. Just like American revolution is taught to every American pupil.

I understand that you didn't really understand what he was talking about. But closing his thread is like closing a thread talking about the Trojan War between ancient Athens and Troy (that is "ethnic strife" too).

Cheers.

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Once again so sorry for my ignorance.

Thread open. Enjoy!!

bd popeye super moderator

vesicles said:

If it were me, I would rather be killed by the rebels than surrender to a foreign enemy. In fact, many people have done just that. Only a handful of people have chosen to align themselves with the invading foreign power and help the invaders kill his own countrymen.

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Actually lots of people in history did align with foreign power... Look at Qin dynasty a couple of thousands of years earlier... the main reason for the Qin to be that strong was the use of foreign talents (and these talents actually align themselves with Qin and in the end destroy the nations that they came from).

Wu Sangui was not a traitor in my opinion. He is an ambition man, he knew that by his own, he could not have defeated Li Zhicheng or even the decaying Ming dynasty. He needed the help of the Manchu and that is exactly what he did.

Later when he was strong enough, he rebel against the Manchu and almost succeeded in winning the whole of China. He is a man who wanted to be an emperor and that was it.

But I would agreed with you on the "blaming ones mistake on the woman" thing. It also pissed me off... why was women in Chinese history always taking blame for what ever mistakes that men did. They even had this idiom to say that "woman are the root of disaster" (红颜祸水). I mean... come on, if anyone with a little bit of knowledge in Chinese history would know that women had the least power or statues (basically sharing the same statures as a family stock) in traditional or ancient Chinese history (not counting Han Dynasty, of course). And if some one with that statues could actually create so much problems in the society, I seriously doubt the ability of the men.

rhino123 said:

Actually lots of people in history did align with foreign power... Look at Qin dynasty a couple of thousands of years earlier... the main reason for the Qin to be that strong was the use of foreign talents (and these talents actually align themselves with Qin and in the end destroy the nations that they came from).

Wu Sangui was not a traitor in my opinion. He is an ambition man, he knew that by his own, he could not have defeated Li Zhicheng or even the decaying Ming dynasty. He needed the help of the Manchu and that is exactly what he did.

Later when he was strong enough, he rebel against the Manchu and almost succeeded in winning the whole of China. He is a man who wanted to be an emperor and that was it.

But I would agreed with you on the "blaming ones mistake on the woman" thing. It also pissed me off... why was women in Chinese history always taking blame for what ever mistakes that men did. They even had this idiom to say that "woman are the root of disaster" (红颜祸水). I mean... come on, if anyone with a little bit of knowledge in Chinese history would know that women had the least power or statues (basically sharing the same statures as a family stock) in traditional or ancient Chinese history (not counting Han Dynasty, of course). And if some one with that statues could actually create so much problems in the society, I seriously doubt the ability of the men.

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I think Wusangui might have the wrong impression, Manchu was not strong enough given that they have a hard time breaking down his Shan Hai Guan.

By buying time after defeat of Li, He believe he will build up an army strong enough to defeat the Qing. What he failed to do will be failing to win the trust of other Han general which they later submitted to Kang Xi and foiled his plan.

I think what so successful about Kang Xi is his policy of "Man Han Yi Jia" ( Manchu and Han as same family). He really trusted his Han official/general and win their trust.

While Wu was always suspicion of his general, even they were Hans.

Lion said:

I think Wusangui might have the wrong impression, Manchu was not strong enough given that they have a hard time breaking down his Shan Hai Guan.

By buying time after defeat of Li, He believe he will build up an army strong enough to defeat the Qing. What he failed to do will be failing to win the trust of other Han general which they later submitted to Kang Xi and foiled his plan.

I think what so successful about Kang Xi is his policy of "Man Han Yi Jia" ( Manchu and Han as same family). He really trusted his Han official/general and win their trust.

While Wu was always suspicion of his general, even they were Hans.

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Yes, I agreed with you. Wu Sangui had underestimate the manchu... especially the teenage emperor Kangxi, like Kangxi had also underestimate Wu Sangui and the other three 'foreign' kings too in the past.

What Wu Sangui should do is to convince Zheng Chengong or his son, Zheng Jing to align themselves with him, so he could have a powerful navy at his disposal too. And that would give him the capability to launch attack on both fronts - Sea and Land.

The Manchurians are well known for the cavalry and so to meet them headon on land is not really a wise thing to do. You might win, but you will pay heavy price. However the Manchu are weak in their navy, so it would be better to attack them by the sea. Or at least distract them from attacks from the sea.

If the land campaigns are not doing too well, you can always divert your attack to those from the sea.

rhino123 said:

Actually lots of people in history did align with foreign power... Look at Qin dynasty a couple of thousands of years earlier... the main reason for the Qin to be that strong was the use of foreign talents (and these talents actually align themselves with Qin and in the end destroy the nations that they came from).

Wu Sangui was not a traitor in my opinion. He is an ambition man, he knew that by his own, he could not have defeated Li Zhicheng or even the decaying Ming dynasty. He needed the help of the Manchu and that is exactly what he did.

Later when he was strong enough, he rebel against the Manchu and almost succeeded in winning the whole of China. He is a man who wanted to be an emperor and that was it.

But I would agreed with you on the "blaming ones mistake on the woman" thing. It also pissed me off... why was women in Chinese history always taking blame for what ever mistakes that men did. They even had this idiom to say that "woman are the root of disaster" (红颜祸水). I mean... come on, if anyone with a little bit of knowledge in Chinese history would know that women had the least power or statues (basically sharing the same statures as a family stock) in traditional or ancient Chinese history (not counting Han Dynasty, of course). And if some one with that statues could actually create so much problems in the society, I seriously doubt the ability of the men.

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Wu Sangui was a Ming general. He defected from the Ming and joined the Qing, allowing the Qing army free passage into undefended Ming territory. That makes him a traitor, whatever way you look at it.

History agrees on this, because the reason his rebellion ultimately failed was that he was widely known as a traitor in the eyes of Han people, and did not receive widespread support from the common populace.

You can try to rationalize his actions, but he is still a traitor by the very definition of that word.

As for Chen Yuanyuan, it's difficult to sort out how much is history, and how much is just popular legend. Are there any historical texts that say Wu defected to the Qing because of Chen Yuanyuan? Maybe that part is just embellishment and storyteller's romance.

Finally, considering that Wu killed one of the last Ming emperors, it is extremely unlikely that the Zheng family would've allied themselves with him. Don't forget that Wu wanted to be emperor himself, while Zheng wanted to restore the Ming emperor to his throne. The two had directly opposing goals.