EU Considers Lifting China Arms Embargo

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vesicles

Colonel
I will start humbling myself when I see evidence, such as the lack of it when it comes to Chinese AESA. I see alot of members and blogs talking about it, but no proof. Are there pictures of a Chinese array? Is there a publication by the CCP that says they have it? Thats why I'm here, to see the proof.

You should know that the absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence. You can't assume it's not there simply because you can't find evidence for it, especially considering the "transparency problem" that the Chinese military has. Many indirect evidence points to the existence of AESA.
 

King_Comm

Junior Member
VIP Professional
I will start humbling myself when I see evidence, such as the lack of it when it comes to Chinese AESA. I see alot of members and blogs talking about it, but no proof. Are there pictures of a Chinese array? Is there a publication by the CCP that says they have it? Thats why I'm here, to see the proof.
What sort of proof are you after? KJ-2000 has a fixed radom, KJ-200 has a balance beam, these arrangements would not work with mechanically scanned radars.

Are you saying that those planes have entered service and are performing patrols with no functioning radars?
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
No nation can be number in every field, exchange of ideas is not a bad thing. Thats I really have to say.

Unless China is going to war with Nato soon, I dont see why China should be to worried about being behind.

being behind is not everything, even China is 5-10 years behind than NATO .. CHina would win the war very easily ... if the war is on China soil.

Even if China was 40 years behind .. I would still bet all my money on China

If China was ahead .. let's say 30 years than NATO .. China still would not be able to win th ewar if the war was in EU

and I don't see China is invading EU countries anytime soon, or at least in
our current generation.

so just relax .. catching up slowly ... no hurry .. China is extremely strong for defensive purpose, no country including US can invade China succesfuly

Arm embargo is not relevan anymore ... China never pursue it to be lifted ... China is advanced enough now to develop their own weapon systems
 

hbogyt

New Member
I regret to make my 2nd post in sdf about this :p
As someone who have also seen Armand's action in the other forum, i feel i need to make some comment

It's to great to see him to arrive here, hbogyt please leave all the pricky behaviour and spare them for use in *that* forum
I believe Armand can find many useful stuffs and benefit greatly from the knowledge in this forum, whether he chose to trust the infos here and learn is up to him to decide

Sorry for OT

My 0.02 $ on the topic,

I think lifting the embargo is much more important to the EU than to PRC. As already stated by other members, PRC has advanced well into many areas of defense technologies after all the hurdles and long struggles.
PRC now does not need to care about the EU arms embargo, it will be good if it's lifted though, easier access and wider options. The current PLA does not depend on EU defense industry, and when they do, they have found ways to navigate around the embargo and deal with it.

If PRC wants the embargo off, we would already see diplomacy and negotiations done by the PRC side.

The EU however is looking at all the $$ that they can make with arms exports to PRC, arguably they are the ones itching to get the embargo off.
Might as well sell the best stuffs for big bucks before the PLA catch up even more, that is probably on their mind ;)

Being accused of being a prick, I shall briefly defend myself.

You have no right to say that. You don't know me, nor Armand well enough. I was merely innoculating against his uncooperative behaviour. Here's an example of what I was talking about:

I cite him a book that I read on the Asian financial crisis. He said there was no need to read it because it wouldn't say what I said it said. PPfftt.

I suggest you direct that rude comment at him rather than me, as he is the one among many others who p!ss all over anything Chinese. There was nothing I could do, let alone "pricky behaviour", "that" forum isn't managed by excellent moderators like popeye, sumdud and Gollevaine.

Sorry guys, I was so angry at his insults. I've always been a rule abiding netizen.



"As I have mentioned before, WS-10A doesn't use Iris nozzles. People want to ignore the fact that this is necessary for a high performance 15 tonne engine. People wondered why the engine was taking so long to get its military thrust, well that is the reason. Until we see an Iris nozzle on it, these engines won't be fixed."

What is a nozzle going to do to ramp up the RPM quicker? The air has already passed the turbines.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Just read this from the defencetalk website.

Reference:

1.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


From there China actually requested (demanded) the lifting of arms embargoment from EU. Which mean, China did requested to lift the ban contradicting to what we have believe.

I am wondering if the arm embargoment was finally lifted, what would China's first purchase be? Helicopters, A400M military transport? or maybe even sub-system like the carrier's catapaults and things like that. It would definitely improve and speed up her R&D sector once China had excess to the modern western equipments.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Common sense dictates that the Chinese defense industry is working on AESA radar. The lack of photos is about as irrelevant as the lack of photos for Russian PAK-FA. We all know it's coming sooner or later. The question remains is how far is the R&D process.

The relationship between Pakistan and China is very different from that of Myanmar. China has invested a lot of assistance and tech transfer to the Pakistani military aviation industry over the past few decades. Products like the K-8 and JF-17 are proofs of this relationship. For Pakistan, it's not a simple matter of choosing a plane from foreign suppliers.

Myanmar has no domestic aviation industry. There's no aircraft assembly facility and anything they buy, it a purchase and delivery. The MiG-29 has a terrible combat record, but has been around nearly 3 decades and went through many upgrades and improvements. It's a more mature platform than the J-10. Buying the MiG-29SMT is a more conservative choice to obtain balance vs. Royal Thai AF F-16 and JAS-39's.

During the Soviet era, the qualify of their aircraft workmanship was not geared toward long service life. Their combat aircraft were built to one massive confrontation in WW3, and the machines were pushed to their limits to achieve that goal. The MiG-29 was originally intended to be fed with very high octane fuel for maximum performance, and if the engine burned out, so be it. But this philosophy doesn't work in the cost-conscious post-cold war era. I think the MiG-29's in indian AF service has forced the Russians to adopt to the new environment, and the MiG-29's produced today are far better in quality with longer airframe lifespan than their predessors.

The Burmese are very fortunate that they're buying the MiG today, after the Indians already dealed with the numerous problems and forced the Russians to fix them. IMO the MiG-29 platform today has probably reached the same maturity level as the F-16 C/D. The J-10 is not there yet (only been in service for 5-6 years!), but will be soon.


I am wondering if the arm embargo was finally lifted, what would China's first purchase be? Helicopters, A400M military transport? or maybe even sub-system like the carrier's catapults and things like that. It would definitely improve and speed up her R&D sector once China had excess to the modern western equipments.

It's not likely that the EU would lift the arms embargo. Here's a good article to read and understand their current "world view":
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The EU arms embargo take the following into consideration:

The code prohibits a sale where:
# it would violate international commitments,
# there is a "clear risk" that the export might be used for internal repression,
# the export could provoke or prolong armed conflict or aggravate existing tensions,
# there is a "clear risk" that the arms would be used aggressively against another country or to assert a territorial claim.

The code calls for special caution where:
# serious violations of human rights have been established,
# the weapons might be used against EU allies and friends,
# there is a risk of unintended transfer of technology or the use of reverse engineering.

The "clear risk" on using arms to aggressively asset territorial claim is one hurdle that's not likely to pass. At best, China might be able to get EU to re-define its embargo terms on what's included/excluded.

On the other hand, the embargo also forces China to spend more resources on its own R&D, which in the long run might be far better than adopting the mentality of importing everything from abroad as "better" -- Taiwan is a good example of this mentality.
 
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montyp165

Junior Member
On the other hand, the embargo also forces China to spend more resources on its own R&D, which in the long run might be far better than adopting the mentality of importing everything from abroad as "better" -- Taiwan is a good example of this mentality.

That is reason enough why Chinese being able to develop world-beating hardware is so important and the best smack against the naysayers who can't think otherwise. :china:
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Just read this from the defencetalk website.

Reference:

1.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


From there China actually requested (demanded) the lifting of arms embargoment from EU. Which mean, China did requested to lift the ban contradicting to what we have believe.

I am wondering if the arm embargoment was finally lifted, what would China's first purchase be? Helicopters, A400M military transport? or maybe even sub-system like the carrier's catapaults and things like that. It would definitely improve and speed up her R&D sector once China had excess to the modern western equipments.

Well, to be honest I'd say that wanting an arms embargo to lift and taking advatage of its removal are two different things. Having any kind of embargo against yourself is a political liability. Any time the EU and China looks at their political relationship, the arms embargo flashes back in their faces. It's only natural China would want to get rid of it, if anything to show that there are no hard feelings.
 

atoll80

New Member
um...I think for China no matter EU embargo lift-off or not, as long China's defense industry find out solution for long-term or short-term of PLA need, maintain innovative design and good innovation, it's going OK.
EU always think China not a democratic country, and always in line with US in policy so no embargo will lift, but we know that all just about politic.
 

atoll80

New Member
China also very lucky condition compare the country that depend from buying defense stuff from someone else. Indonesia is one example with their F-16 squad, Hercules transport during embargo by US. Maybe China can send their engineer to learn know-how in defense industry in non-EU country like Ukraine, Russia, Turkey, Serbia as part of exchange program between defense industry or China can participate with other country in defense project.(also can be exchange military official)
 
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