Reply The greatest military strategist in Chinese history?

maozedong said:

1945, is China's history of a turning point, the Chinese suffered bitterly from imperialist aggression and for a century, the first ╴ time to achieve victory in Anti-Japanese war.

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Oh... one more thing, I find it really confusing that someone of ur knowledge seemed to have left out something, maybe it is just a sentence structure error? From your paragraph, I found it difficult to understand, what you mean is that the anti-japanese war is going on for a century? According to recorded history, anti-japanese war was actually from 1937 to 1945. The period before is not anti-japanese. Before that, china was very weak from the Qing Dynasty... and was bullied by almost all other western power.

maozedong said:

1945-1949,Mao Zedong led the great people's liberation war, he commanded the Liaoning-Shenyang battle, the Huaihai battle, Pingjin battle,He just like Beethoven, creating these three symphonies.
he used Art of War combine with the last century war in China.

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Mao Zedong is the figurehead of the People Liberation War, but many battles are led by his general and not himself. Huaihai battle was actually ochestra by Su Yu, it is his plan and strategy that win that war.

Liaoning-shenyang battle was commanded by Lin Biao and not Mao Zedong. Pingjin campaign was commanded by Lin Biao and Luo Ronghuan.

Mao Zedong is a great man oversee the overall objectives of the battles, he knew he must win these three campaigns, but as to the strategies and tactics used on field and how to accomplish the final victory of these three campaigns, he leave it to his marshals and general. if you say that it was he who commanded and win these three campaigns, then you are doing discredit to the rest of the generals and marshals who won the battle for china.

maozedong said:

He created a guerrilla strategy,

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Who say he create the guerrilla strategy? He based the guerrilla strategy alot on the Spainese Guerilla during Napolean period. Also this strategy is nothing really new, it had been in use since ancient art of war by Sun Tzu. And a person of your knowledge would have know it.

However it is Mao Zedong who actually implemented all these strategies successfully and also integrate them together very well... which by no means is a simple feat.

maozedong said:

and gradually grow fewer weak Red Army,When the Red Army in the long march period,He commanded the Red Army crossed the Chishui River four times, so that the enemy know what to do, he led the Red Army through the Dadu River, forced to cross Wujiang river, he led the Red Army out of surrounded and chased by serval hundred thousand enemys, finally arrived in Yan'an, the establishment of the anti-Japanese base areas.

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I fail to see how was he a great military strategy in this case. He led his men out... that was it. They are defeated and they are running away. ALthough many people would sing praises for their heroisms, but that was it... if you look pass all these bravery, you know that there is only one thing, the communists are defeated at that point of time and they are moving off.

maozedong said:

He created the people's war strategy,

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That is correct. Mao Zedong invented the people's war strategy and it is a great feat.

maozedong said:

with the rural areas surrounding the cities strategy, he developed a set of campaign tactics

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Most of the campaign tactics are developed by his marshal and not him. He is the overall leader of the communist.

maozedong said:

large formation combat strategy, including does not care about a city and a land gains and losses,to eliminate the enemy's effective strength for the purpose. encircle the enemy that the fight against the enemy aid, all of which are included elements of the Art of War.

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So as you can see, you also agreed that the strategies formed by Mao Zedong are actually also basing on Art of war. But I think not just the Art of War... but also other tactics from elsewhere (no need to ask me for a link).

So Mao Zedong actually implement these tactics and strategies of ancient or old genius successfully in his career.

maozedong said:

He created and led the PLA, the establishment of The People's Republic of China.

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Yes, you are correct in this.

maozedong said:

He sent troops to participate in the Korean War, force the U.N troops from the Chinese border back to Korean 3. 8 latitude and longitude lin.

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All he did was sent troops to participate in the korean war. The actually person who force the UN troop back is Peng Dehuai and not Mao Zedong. Please do not forget that.

maozedong said:

1962, China won sino-india border war.

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Yes. Mao zedong is one of the commander for this war but he is not the only one. What about Zhang Guohua?

Also as I remember you mentioned that you have lots of links and examples... but from this post of yours, I did not see any links or examples. You mentioned that you have written details of Mao in the war... may I know which details are that? If it is all in your abovementioned post... then I think I missed it... because all these campaigns are won by Mao's marshals and generals. He is never in direct command.

maozedong said:

no body want you accept my oppinion, the thing is you coming to aguring with me, so what are you trying to boast too?

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Er... this is a debate, not an arguement. Please get this right. We are debating civily.

maozedong said:

read some books not that hard, I only post one for my selection, wnat's the matter you non stop talking so much like long tongue....

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No need to resort to name callings. You can talk so can I. So why when I rebuke your claims and you get some defensive and start calling me names? Long tongue? That is something new.

maozedong said:

I like apple,you like banana, you just make another post to talk about haw good the banana is, this time in the post you want to make flaming or not?

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We just have different opinions... and why only your opinion can be shown in this post and my opinion must be thrown out and start another post? If accusing of flaming, then you are the one flaming this forum. You do not allow other to talk. and by name calling that person too.

maozedong said:

" you have your own opinion, I have mine. Why shouldn't I be allow in this debate?" this question exactly I want to ask you.
I don't mine how to you judge Mao, you said its " silly" to talk this, why are you still come to talk?

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Please don't twist and turn my words (how typical of you). What I say in my previous post is that it is silly to compare who is the greatest strategists. I came here to debate on your point of view. If you actually think your point of view is correct and all the other people's are crap, then I think you are not allow to come and talk. Just write a decree and tell people that all their believes are crap.

what do you want now? how many quesions do you want me to answer you now?
I just tell you 2 quesions:
Liaoning-Shenyang battle plan made by Mao Zedong,to first capture of Jinzhou, surround all the enemys in Northeast China, Mao and Lin Biao's telegram file still remains, a photo can be seen, where are you born? Why are you so poor you have common sense, how can I teach you?

1945, is China's history of a turning point, the Chinese suffered bitterly from imperialist aggression and for a century, the first ╴ time to achieve victory in Anti-Japanese war.

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clearly to say China suffered bitterly from imperialist for a century include 8 years Japanese aggressive, are you idiot? just go to reading book and watch DVD by you self.
do you like to play? go ahead!

maozedong said:

what do you want now? how many quesions do you want me to answer you now?
I just tell you 2 quesions:
Liaoning-Shenyang battle plan made by Mao Zedong,to first capture of Jinzhou, surround all the enemys in Northeast China, Mao and Lin Biao's telegram file still remains, a photo can be seen, where are you born? Why are you so poor you have common sense, how can I teach you?

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First of all, there is nothing about common sense here. And as I have said before and I will say it again, there is no need for name calling. This is chinese history, I am not from China, and so I might not have as much knowledge in modern china history as yourself, thus I am asking these questions, because when I google some sites, they never mentioned Mao's move in Liaoning Shenyang campaign.

And you have conveniently left out all the other campaigns which I had posted in debate to your previous posting.

Please do not insult other people in this civilized debate.

maozedong said:

clearly to say China suffered bitterly from imperialist for a century include 8 years Japanese aggressive, are you idiot? just go to reading book and watch DVD by you self.
do you like to play? go ahead!

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And of course this is unbecoming of you. do not insult other people and name calling others. No one here deserve this. Plus you bring up the great feat of Mao Zedong, I disagree. SO you must convince us and not ask us to read a book or watch DVD.

And who is playing? We have all reach an age that we do not play... you are not making much sense here.

And if you are continuing to act this way and was this defensive, it is really difficult to carry on the debate.

Ok, I am glad that someone finally step in before this is getting really ugly.

So let us start anew. The reason for me saying that Mao Zedong is not the greatest military strategist in China as compare to the other is not an insulting remark to the man. I had admitted and had always admired Mao's capability. What I am saying is that many of the campaigns that was brought up previously couldn't have been implemented successfully without the direction of his marshals and generals.

To name three of them - Huaihai campaign was directed by Su Yu, he is the one who proposed a operation plan to the communist war council. And the entire campaign was commanded by Liu Bocheng and Chen Yi with Deng XiaoPing as the political commissar. This info can be found in () although wikipedia is not always a good and accurate source, but it did provide some insight.

The Liaoshen campaign was directed by Lin Biao (). I have read the telegrams that a poster had said (in english though), it did mentioned about some of the direction that Lin Biao should take. And it is good directions. But Lin Biao is the person in charge of the campaigns and without him, it would not have been achieved.

And, regarding the Korean war whereby Mao Zedong had decided to sent troops in... well the main thing here is - he sent troops in and thats all. Peng Dehuai is the person who direct the troops in all of the campaigns in Korea. So in term of strategy here, Peng Dehuai is the one involved.

The abovementioned is only three examples... therefore I am only asking everyone to be fair in naming who direct and win the campaigns. It is not always Mao who had won the war... we must give credit to his men too.

Anyway, I believe my previous posts are all being misunderstood, what I started off is to say that it is not always the case that someone becoming great is because of his background. We could look at Zhu Yuan Zhang as an example... he is peasant born, been a beggar before, was a monk before... but he built one of the world's strongest empire.

Qin Shi Huang on the other hand might have come from a good background... however if you look at the map and location of the Qin state as compare to the rest of the states in China at that time... Qin was in the worst area... but why was it the strongest? If Qin Shi Huang is not really that amazing... would Qin state still continue to be the strongest? This is a question that we must ponder.

Finally without getting too detail in the entire history of CHina, I must again excess that it is not easy or was an impossible task to determine which military strategists is the greatest... Because they are born in different era... met with different circumstances and no one will truely know what they will be performing, the strategy they will develope and the people they will use when put in each other shoes.

And btw... all of them are long gone now... so to be fair to each and everyone of them, we could only put them at the same level.

I think we need to distinguish between a strategist and a tactician. The generals who lead a campaign may be great, but they are more of tacticians, meaning that they focus on the tasks on hands, such as fighting a single campaign on a short time scale (a couple months to a few years 'til the campaign ends). A strategist should look at things a lot more long term. How can we win the whole war? Which general would I use to complete these tasks, based on their skills and personality? What happens once the war is over? etc, etc, etc...

In the case of Mao, yes, Lin Biao led several campaigns and Peng Dehuai led the campaigns in Korean war, but these are tactical things. What is a strategic thing then? In the 30's, Mao proposed to start the whole struggle from the country side, instead of focusing mainly on the cities, hence the famed "country-side surrounding the cities". This is the single most important strategy that allowed the development and maturation of the CCP and PLA, that eventually permitted the CCP to be strong enough to challange the Nationalists. Without the resoures gathered in this development stage, Lin Biao or Peng Dehuai would have nothing to work with. This would be a strategist's job and none of the generals could do this.

And before the Korean War, many people in China, even including many in the PLA, were against any involvement in Korea for fear of losing. Mao decided to go in because he undertood that if NK was gone, China would be next, and that It would be the best if the war could be fought on a foreign soil. This decision of going to war would be the long-term strategic thinking that none of the generals was thinking about. They only thought about tactical aspect of things, like how to win a campaign, while Mao was thinking about the future of China.

To use an analogy, a strategist points the way and the generals figure out how to get there. Both are important but different. We canNOT compare between them.

vesicles said:

I think we need to distinguish between a strategist and a tactician. The generals who lead a campaign may be great, but they are more of tacticians, meaning that they focus on the tasks on hands, such as fighting a single campaign on a short time scale (a couple months to a few years 'til the campaign ends). A strategist should look at things a lot more long term. How can we win the whole war? Which general would I use to complete these tasks, based on their skills and personality? What happens once the war is over? etc, etc, etc...

In the case of Mao, yes, Lin Biao led several campaigns and Peng Dehuai led the campaigns in Korean war, but these are tactical things. What is a strategic thing then? In the 30's, Mao proposed to start the whole struggle from the country side, instead of focusing mainly on the cities, hence the famed "country-side surrounding the cities". This is the single most important strategy that allowed the development and maturation of the CCP and PLA, that eventually permitted the CCP to be strong enough to challange the Nationalists. Without the resoures gathered in this development stage, Lin Biao or Peng Dehuai would have nothing to work with. This would be a strategist's job and none of the generals could do this.

And before the Korean War, many people in China, even including many in the PLA, were against any involvement in Korea for fear of losing. Mao decided to go in because he undertood that if NK was gone, China would be next, and that It would be the best if the war could be fought on a foreign soil. This decision of going to war would be the long-term strategic thinking that none of the generals was thinking about. They only thought about tactical aspect of things, like how to win a campaign, while Mao was thinking about the future of China.

To use an analogy, a strategist points the way and the generals figure out how to get there. Both are important but different. We canNOT compare between them.

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Hmm... what u say is true. However as we can see, those strategies drawn out by Mao is important for CCP and PLA at one point and the entire china in another point. But those are more of a political strategies and overall country's strategies which was at a much higher framework.

We are now looking at military strategies, which for example, was to define the objectives of a campaign, why do we start the campaign, and what is the most favourable outcome of the campaign so we could carry on to another step that would ultimately achieve the goal of the country or army.

Under this framework would be the task whereby individual generals would draft out as to how to achieve the objectives of the said campaigns... and finally the sergeants on field would be the one to actually implement the tactics set up by the individual generals. So from my point of view the frameworks would be something like this:

1) Overall National Strategies (so as to safeguard a nation's sovereignity, growth, etc, etc) - the task would be for the President or CHairman (sometime certain big scale campaigns might even need to be drafted out)

2) In order to achieve the strategies set by the chairman and president the marshal would advise and direct campaigns (military strategies)

3) how to achieve the objectives of each campaigns (military tactics) should be done by generals.

4) How to implement the tactics - this would be the job for lieutanents and sergeants on field leading the troops.

In the case of the Korean War, Mao actually felt or sense the danger whereby if NK was to fall, China's heavy industrial area in Wuhan will be opened to the UN. Once these areas are destroy China will be very vulnerable. Thus he decided to send troops in to push the 'aggressors' back. This would belong to the highest framework of strategies.

Peng Dehuai in leading the troops in would have to draft out campaigns and objectives for his individual generals to achieve so as to achieve the goals of pushing the aggressors back. (This would fall under the second framework which was the military strategies)

Peng's individual generals would have to come up with tactics (humanwave tactics, recon, guerillas, conventional, mobile, etc) to achieve the third framework (military tactics).

Field leader and sergeant or lieutanents will then implement the tactics... and in it they might even implement some on the field tactics such as snipering, full combat charge, close range bayonnet fighting, etc. (implementation of tactics).

So as you can see, Mao being a great leader is setting goals for China and it was his marshal that direct the campaigns.

Your arguments only illustrate Mao was the military strategist because there was no political platforms for him at the time. Mao was not firmly at the highest position until 1945, and he earned his respects from his generals through military campaigns. The only one who disagreed with Mao, and won, on campaign level was Su Yu, and he credits Mao on overall strategies. If you read Mao's various writings, you would see many of the principles still apply today, even in the corporate world.

rhino123 said:

Hmm... what u say is true. However as we can see, those strategies drawn out by Mao is important for CCP and PLA at one point and the entire china in another point. But those are more of a political strategies and overall country's strategies which was at a much higher framework.

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So as you can see, Mao being a great leader is setting goals for China and it was his marshal that direct the campaigns.

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tres said:

Your arguments only illustrate Mao was the military strategist because there was no political platforms for him at the time. Mao was not firmly at the highest position until 1945, and he earned his respects from his generals through military campaigns. The only one who disagreed with Mao, and won, on campaign level was Su Yu, and he credits Mao on overall strategies. If you read Mao's various writings, you would see many of the principles still apply today, even in the corporate world.

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What you say might be true, pardon me for the ignorant of Mao's writing, but could you direct me to a link or a book that actually have his writing. I would like very much to read his military strategies but not his biography or any writing by him on his accomplishment. Pardon me for my cynical approach to it because I am wary that any writing by himself on his accomplishment might not actually be very true to the actual circumstances.