Peru is buying Chinese tanks

Pointblank said:

All we have confirmation is that the Chinese tank was evaluated and that negotiations are ongoing. To say definitively that Peru is buying Chinese tanks is counting your chickens before they hatch. In fact, 7 months ago, if we applied your logic, we would be saying that Peru was going to buy Polish tanks.

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When did Peru armour crew drive down the polish tank? When did Peru president say Peru interested in Polish Tank and going to buy them?

If not, how does my logic is being applied? What Polish have? PT-71?? A T-72 derived which was badly maul in Gulf war??

I have touched the Leopards more then once and I think there are some reasons not to go for it. It is optimized for European battlefield. It is expensive when it comes to spare parts and maintenance. It is with political strings. Just make a simple conclusion. If the richest nations like Germany and Holland are dumping the not so old frames then one should wonder what "extra" will it cost just to use them in WOT or as reserve... They rather have them sold... So it must me more expensive then many assume.

I think China is producing better and better material and with soft loans (or changing weapons for commodities) and a lot lower prices they just cannot be ignored. The alternatives are expensive second hand or unpayable latest... One does not need to be an accountant to understand why products from China are acceptable and China has huge market potential.

I'm really suprised that Peru is actually buying the VT-1A. I do think that the cost is really a huge factor. Chinese tank are probably far cheaper, which makes them more budget friendly. But based on performance ? I really have some hard believing it.

Why ? Peru mainly want to protect herself from Chile, who are using Leopard 2A4 CHL (it's a Leo 2A4 with new FCS, communications gears and a RHM L/55 120mm Smoothbore gun instead of the L/44). Leo 2 have an excellant armor, and the 120mm L/55 smoothbore gun is a world-beater (this gun have 1500m more range than the 120mm L/44 M256 used on the Abrams)....

I do believe that choosing a chinese tank make the change simpler for all the personnel, since Peru is using T-55, retraining all personnels on this new vehicles might be simpler and less expensive.

Munir said:

I have touched the Leopards more then once and I think there are some reasons not to go for it. It is optimized for European battlefield. It is expensive when it comes to spare parts and maintenance. It is with political strings. Just make a simple conclusion. If the richest nations like Germany and Holland are dumping the not so old frames then one should wonder what "extra" will it cost just to use them in WOT or as reserve... They rather have them sold... So it must me more expensive then many assume.

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Well, I'd just like to say that if Germany and the Netherlands are selling their tanks is not because their are expensive, but because their aren't needed anymore. Since the fall of Soviet Union, NATO countries (except for the US) are downsizing their armies because there's much less threat (some have even downsize by more than 50%. To give you a idea. Germany only keep around 400 Leo 2A6 (She had more than 2500 Leo 2 during the cold war) and she has downsized her land force to 5 division (2 Panzer, 1 PanzerGrenadier, 1 Special Force and 1 AirMobile) oppose to more than 10 Panzer and PanzerGren. Div. and 6 Panzer Brigades during to the Cold War. Otherwise, keeping such a large army around is absurd in modern post-materialism society.

rommel said:

I'm really suprised that Peru is actually buying the VT-1A. I do think that the cost is really a huge factor. Chinese tank are probably far cheaper, which makes them more budget friendly. But based on performance ? I really have some hard believing it.

Why ? Peru mainly want to protect herself from Chile, who are using Leopard 2A4 CHL (it's a Leo 2A4 with new FCS, communications gears and a RHM L/55 120mm Smoothbore gun instead of the L/44). Leo 2 have an excellant armor, and the 120mm L/55 smoothbore gun is a world-beater (this gun have 1500m more range than the 120mm L/44 M256 used on the Abrams)....

I do believe that choosing a chinese tank make the change simpler for all the personnel, since Peru is using T-55, retraining all personnels on this new vehicles might be simpler and less expensive.



Well, I'd just like to say that if Germany and the Netherlands are selling their tanks is not because their are expensive, but because their aren't needed anymore. Since the fall of Soviet Union, NATO countries (except for the US) are downsizing their armies because there's much less threat (some have even downsize by more than 50%. To give you a idea. Germany only keep around 400 Leo 2A6 (She had more than 2500 Leo 2 during the cold war) and she has downsized her land force to 5 division (2 Panzer, 1 PanzerGrenadier, 1 Special Force and 1 AirMobile) oppose to more than 10 Panzer and PanzerGren. Div. and 6 Panzer Brigades during to the Cold War. Otherwise, keeping such a large army around is absurd in modern post-materialism society.

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I thought Europe was decreasing the quantity of their weapons and increasing the quality of their weapons? Irregardless of the reason, the members of the European Union still spend enormous resources on its military. I think the EU military spending is at least $200 billion per year.

rommel said:

I'm really suprised that Peru is actually buying the VT-1A. I do think that the cost is really a huge factor. Chinese tank are probably far cheaper, which makes them more budget friendly. But based on performance ? I really have some hard believing it.

Why ? Peru mainly want to protect herself from Chile, who are using Leopard 2A4 CHL (it's a Leo 2A4 with new FCS, communications gears and a RHM L/55 120mm Smoothbore gun instead of the L/44). Leo 2 have an excellant armor, and the 120mm L/55 smoothbore gun is a world-beater (this gun have 1500m more range than the 120mm L/44 M256 used on the Abrams)....

I do believe that choosing a chinese tank make the change simpler for all the personnel, since Peru is using T-55, retraining all personnels on this new vehicles might be simpler and less expensive.

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Well, since Peru's main adversary is Chile who is operating Leo 2, it give Peru army more reasons not to buy Leo 2 (whatever version of it), since the Chile army would have more experience with Leo 2 they would most probably know some of the weaknesses of Leo 2 and might have developed tactics to counter these weaknesses, and when Peru is using it, they are new to this machine and so know nothing about this weakness.

This would most probably give Chile some edge over Peru. Thus it is better to get something that not only are you familiar with, but most importantly... what your opponents are not familiar with.

I also believe that the Chinese Tanks are not half as bad as what many people have imagine, thus it is actually quite logical for the decision (if Peru actually go for the Chinese tanks.)

rommel said:

I'm really suprised that Peru is actually buying the VT-1A. I do think that the cost is really a huge factor. Chinese tank are probably far cheaper, which makes them more budget friendly. But based on performance ? I really have some hard believing it.

Why ? Peru mainly want to protect herself from Chile, who are using Leopard 2A4 CHL (it's a Leo 2A4 with new FCS, communications gears and a RHM L/55 120mm Smoothbore gun instead of the L/44). Leo 2 have an excellant armor, and the 120mm L/55 smoothbore gun is a world-beater (this gun have 1500m more range than the 120mm L/44 M256 used on the Abrams)....

I do believe that choosing a chinese tank make the change simpler for all the personnel, since Peru is using T-55, retraining all personnels on this new vehicles might be simpler and less expensive.

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I would agree; the Chinese tank would not fair that well against the Chilean Leopard 2's, and there are other options available that can be had at a better price that would provide more capability. Remember, the Indians paid roughly 3.5 million dollars each for their T-90 tanks, and they had them licensed produced in India.

Pointblank said:

I would agree; the Chinese tank would not fair that well against the Chilean Leopard 2's, and there are other options available that can be had at a better price that would provide more capability. Remember, the Indians paid roughly 3.5 million dollars each for their T-90 tanks, and they had them licensed produced in India.

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From that logic, Pakistan should also be buying Russian tanks instead of China's tanks. What we know is that Leo 2 are good MBT that had been fairly tested in a couple of battlefields. And most of Leo 2 adversaries are Russian built T-72 and its variants, thus I would imagine why Peru doesn't want Russian tanks.

And as posted by myself before, it is never a good idea to buy something that your neighbour already operates. Because your neighbour had more experience in that kind of weaponries more than u do and that is not a good thing.

Plus finally no one would know whether Chinese tanks would fair badly against Leo 2 or not because they simply was not tested or pit against each other yet. So it is kind of unfair to jump into conclusion that Chinese tank will fair badly against Leo 2.

rommel said:

I'm really suprised that Peru is actually buying the VT-1A. I do think that the cost is really a huge factor. Chinese tank are probably far cheaper, which makes them more budget friendly. But based on performance ? I really have some hard believing it.

Why ? Peru mainly want to protect herself from Chile, who are using Leopard 2A4 CHL (it's a Leo 2A4 with new FCS, communications gears and a RHM L/55 120mm Smoothbore gun instead of the L/44). Leo 2 have an excellant armor, and the 120mm L/55 smoothbore gun is a world-beater (this gun have 1500m more range than the 120mm L/44 M256 used on the Abrams)....

I do believe that choosing a chinese tank make the change simpler for all the personnel, since Peru is using T-55, retraining all personnels on this new vehicles might be simpler and less expensive.





Well, I'd just like to say that if Germany and the Netherlands are selling their tanks is not because their are expensive, but because their aren't needed anymore. Since the fall of Soviet Union, NATO countries (except for the US) are downsizing their armies because there's much less threat (some have even downsize by more than 50%. To give you a idea. Germany only keep around 400 Leo 2A6 (She had more than 2500 Leo 2 during the cold war) and she has downsized her land force to 5 division (2 Panzer, 1 PanzerGrenadier, 1 Special Force and 1 AirMobile) oppose to more than 10 Panzer and PanzerGren. Div. and 6 Panzer Brigades during to the Cold War. Otherwise, keeping such a large army around is absurd in modern post-materialism society.

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if Peru is a country of mountainous and traffic inconvenience,Leopard II may not suitable for Peru, such 60ton monster in Peru maybe only stay in the capital city of Peru, can't go anywhere. Leopard II suitable fore Chile may not suitable for Peru. of caurse the price is one of the consideration, VIT-1A price is cheap, but performance not bad, it get much morden upgrade,with 125mm gun. if Peru not try to enter Chile for battle, but just defence it's self in Peru, I can't think any reason that Peru is not going to buy VIT-1A.
as you know Leopard II,M1 as cold war product,suitable for operations in Europe,how many Asia and central,south America countries to buy it,Pakistan face to India, still buying BMT2000, and India do not buy Europe and the U.S tanks, India is fully capable to buy.South Korea face to war any time, it's future tank K2 cost USD over 7million but its weight only 55ton. Israel's Merkava tanks, the initial design of its surprising, but it is very suitable for Israel.
China type99 weights about 51ton, China is fully capable of its tanks, the weight increased to 60 tons, but they don't, why?

maozedong said:

if Peru is a country of mountainous and traffic inconvenience,Leopard II may not suitable for Peru, such 60ton monster in Peru maybe only stay in the capital city of Peru, can't go anywhere. Leopard II suitable fore Chile may not suitable for Peru. of caurse the price is one of the consideration, VIT-1A price is cheap, but performance not bad, it get much morden upgrade,with 125mm gun. if Peru not try to enter Chile for battle, but just defence it's self in Peru, I can't think any reason that Peru is not going to buy VIT-1A.
as you know Leopard II,M1 as cold war product,suitable for operations in Europe,how many Asia and central,south America countries to buy it,Pakistan face to India, still buying BMT2000, and India do not buy Europe and the U.S tanks, India is fully capable to buy.South Korea face to war any time, it's future tank K2 cost USD over 7million but its weight only 55ton. Israel's Merkava tanks, the initial design of its surprising, but it is very suitable for Israel.
China type99 weights about 51ton, China is fully capable of its tanks, the weight increased to 60 tons, but they don't, why?

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I think Chile's terrain is similar to that of Peru. And if Chile can use Leo 2, I believe Peru could too (not suggesting that they do though). As to more modern upgrade, I don't think Chinese tank had more modern upgrade than Leo 2. and a main gun is not always measured by the calibre of the rounds fired, but they the kinetic energy developed.

Also we don't just look at the weigh of a tank as a whole, more importantly we must consider the weigh distribution of the tank.

If the tank is designed to be more agile so as to travel in dense forest, then the following must be considered -

1) Size
2) the power the engine produce
3) The speed of the tank

Also we don't look at tank at their initial cost only but also consider maintenance cost, ease of maintenance, operating cost (fuel, etc).

Finally if you really want a tank to travel easily in forested and mountaineous area, you might as well buy a light tank rather than a MBT.

So the reason for Peru to buy chinese tank (if they really wanted to buy it) boils down on the following,

1) What their neighbour has and was operating.
2) initial cost of the tank
3) operating cost of the tank
4) availability of spare parts or ease of making and building of spare parts.
5) size of the tank
6) the army's preferrence (boils down to individual drivers' preferrence.
7) Logistic

Also in your enquiries of why chinese do not increase the weigh of their MBT to 60 tons, the explanation could be as simple as - there really is no need to. They might have better materials, they think it is not needed because heavier tank consume more fuel and might be slower.

It actually boils down to the tactics that the chinese employed and what they think is important.

Pointblank said:

I would agree; the Chinese tank would not fair that well against the Chilean Leopard 2's, and there are other options available that can be had at a better price that would provide more capability. Remember, the Indians paid roughly 3.5 million dollars each for their T-90 tanks, and they had them licensed produced in India.

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T-90? It will fare even worst against Leopard2 than VT-1A. Precisely why Peru buy VT-1A. They know T-72 series tank is no good. VT-1A fare better.

T-72 series tank can't even make a full 360 transverse turn on spot.