Modern Piracy on the High Seas

Semi-Lobster said:

To even call Somalia a 'country' right now is even a bit much. Around the capital of Mogadishu, the territory is not controlled directly by the internationally recognised government but by a Byzantine system of clans and warlords who pay lip service to the the weak government in the capital in order to stay in power. The farther you get away from the capital the more obvious it becomes that the government really controls nothing at all. Even after Ethiopian involvement and the power sharing structure of the Transitional Federal Government to bring in rivals into the fold, the vast majority of the country is completely out of the government's hand, and the very structure of the Transitional Federal Government would collapse almost immediately if not for the international support and funding from the UN and African Union.

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even if that's the case, you still have to respect somalia's sovereignty.

rommel said:

I think that you going to far Infrar_Man99.

As a moderator, I think that your point of view is very radical and inflammatory. You're playing on a dangerous ground and not really looking to understand the situation.

[I edited out paragraphs here]

PS: I wouldn't talk about international laws and the source of this problems because this will end up and heat up as political discussion, but I believe that you haven't fully understand the situation

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Of course I haven't fully understood the situation. No one does. It's impossible for one person to fully understood a bunch of people in a large area. Why don't the forum members here discuss with each other here about Somalia so we can get a better understanding of Somalia. Isn't that one purpose for discussions and forums?

The pirates definitely have wealth on their minds. The pirates use their speed boats, cell phones, and weapons to target profitable ships or valuable people: oil tankers, cargo ships, and luxury ships. The pirates don't spend their efforts, fuel, and ammunition on random stuff. They go right after the goodies, which is totally expected, because pirates make a living off of stealing and ransom.


So now we have a few options for Somalia:

1. Nation building. Good luck with this one. Nation building is difficult when the nation you are building is filled with people who are violent, stealing tribes, or if the people are stuck in civil war caused by various reasons. See Iraq and Afghanistan for the latter example example. Nation building will probably turn into a waste of resources and unnecessary lives.

2. Ignore Somalia and hope for the best. Good luck with this one. Somalian pirates have a racket as long as Somalia is near lawless and critical sea routes. Wishful thinking is probably going to result into a waste of resources and unnecessary lives.

3. Use superior force to scare away pirates and repel the worst pirates. This has worked so far. Ever since international nations sent their naval patrols to the Indian Ocean, they have decreased the Somali piracy.

I want to add onto Option #3. I propose developing cost-effective patrols to end illegal fishing in the Indian Ocean, to end illegal dumping of waste in the Indian Ocean, and to defeat pirates. We don't need the current destroyers to guard against criminal behavior in the Indian Ocean, because these destroyers are too powerful and expensive. Most major navies are designed for war and not optimized for long-term policing. Patrolling nations should figure out a way to make Somalia fund these patrols, or Somalia could create their own patrols.


Or, we could forget about Option #3, which has been successful, and try Option #1 and #2, which has been a failure. Maybe we should reprimand or arrest everyone who fights back against piracy (). Maybe sailors would be better off negotiating with pirates, ignoring pirates, and working without the protection of law enforcement.

Infra_Man99 said:

So now we have a few options for Somalia:

1. Nation building. Good luck with this one. Nation building is difficult when the nation you are building is filled with people who are violent, stealing tribes, or if the people are stuck in civil war caused by various reasons. See Iraq and Afghanistan for the latter example example. Nation building will probably turn into a waste of resources and unnecessary lives.

2. Ignore Somalia and hope for the best. Good luck with this one. Somalian pirates have a racket as long as Somalia is near lawless and critical sea routes. Wishful thinking is probably going to result into a waste of resources and unnecessary lives.

3. Use superior force to scare away pirates and repel the worst pirates. This has worked so far. Ever since international nations sent their naval patrols to the Indian Ocean, they have decreased the Somali piracy.

I want to add onto Option #3. I propose developing cost-effective patrols to end illegal fishing in the Indian Ocean, to end illegal dumping of waste in the Indian Ocean, and to defeat pirates. We don't need the current destroyers to guard against criminal behavior in the Indian Ocean, because these destroyers are too powerful and expensive. Most major navies are designed for war and not optimized for long-term policing. Patrolling nations should figure out a way to make Somalia fund these patrols, or Somalia could create their own patrols.


Or, we could forget about Option #3, which has been successful, and try Option #1 and #2, which has been a failure. Maybe we should reprimand or arrest everyone who fights back against piracy (

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). Maybe sailors would be better off negotiating with pirates, ignoring pirates, and working without the protection of law enforcement.

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Well, there's a few things I'll try to explain. It could maybe help you understand more. I will explain the phenomena of radicalization first, because this is the main reason why the use of force and violence in the LONG TERM will lead to a potentially ever greater dangerous situation. Over the last 2 decades, we have been witness to this new trend. This mean that groups (its could be religious, political, etc) are using more and more violence and radical ways to get to their goals.

Afterward, the technological development of weapon has made low-tech weaponry more easily accessible and more user-friendly (think about firearms, anti-tank rocket/missiles, MANPAD). As a matter of fact, modern societies tend to consider that weapons and violence are a banality because people are used to see them and hear about it. The use of force will lead eventually to an escalation of violence because groups are getting more and more radical, so their are ready to be more violent, and because weapon are more accessiable than before, they would not hesitated acquiring and using them.

The third point is sociological. The instinct of survival is the most important in the human being. Therefore, since piracy is very lucrative, there will be piracy as long the social condition are harsh. For exemple, in Vietnam and Laos, even though selling scrap metal from unexploded ordnance is illegal and dangerous, people still do it because they need to survive and this help them. Same with piracy. The only way to resolve that ? Nation building, investment in education, economics, social programs, etc. But, rebuilding a nation is long, we wouldn't see result before at least 20-25 years. It's a while, but its worth it. It's like in Afghanistan and Iraq, we are not seeing result for now, but if this rebuilding program is maintained for 25 years. Then, the results will be here.

So, if you read carefully, I said in my previous post that use of force in the short term will fill the gap, but not on the long term. I really think only nation building can definitively solve this problem.

pla101prc said:

even if that's the case, you still have to respect somalia's sovereignty.

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Indeed, as Ethiopia's recent involvement shows, one must play a delicate game with Somalia, lest the entire operation simply exacerbates the problem

rommel said:

Well, there's a few things I'll try to explain. It could maybe help you understand more. I will explain the phenomena of radicalization first, because this is the main reason why the use of force and violence in the LONG TERM will lead to a potentially ever greater dangerous situation. Over the last 2 decades, we have been witness to this new trend. This mean that groups (its could be religious, political, etc) are using more and more violence and radical ways to get to their goals.

Afterward, the technological development of weapon has made low-tech weaponry more easily accessible and more user-friendly (think about firearms, anti-tank rocket/missiles, MANPAD). As a matter of fact, modern societies tend to consider that weapons and violence are a banality because people are used to see them and hear about it. The use of force will lead eventually to an escalation of violence because groups are getting more and more radical, so their are ready to be more violent, and because weapon are more accessiable than before, they would not hesitated acquiring and using them.

The third point is sociological. The instinct of survival is the most important in the human being. Therefore, since piracy is very lucrative, there will be piracy as long the social condition are harsh. For exemple, in Vietnam and Laos, even though selling scrap metal from unexploded ordnance is illegal and dangerous, people still do it because they need to survive and this help them. Same with piracy. The only way to resolve that ? Nation building, investment in education, economics, social programs, etc. But, rebuilding a nation is long, we wouldn't see result before at least 20-25 years. It's a while, but its worth it. It's like in Afghanistan and Iraq, we are not seeing result for now, but if this rebuilding program is maintained for 25 years. Then, the results will be here.

So, if you read carefully, I said in my previous post that use of force in the short term will fill the gap, but not on the long term. I really think only nation building can definitively solve this problem.

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(Please turn on your sarcasm alarm before reading my writings.)

Let's say Bush Co/Obama Co use violence to HOPEFULLY gain the friendship/loyalty/submission of Middle Easters, and then use this "bridge" to obtain special oil and trade deals from Middle Easterners. Then this sounds like "the phenomena of radicalization[:] . . . this is the main reason why the use of force and violence in the LONG TERM will lead to a potentially ever greater dangerous situation. Over the last 2 decades, we have been witness to this new trend. This mean that groups (its could be religious, political, etc) are using more and more violence and radical ways to get to their goals." Hmm, violence-by-my-way is justified, but violence-by-others is not justified! Ahhh, what a compelling argument. I have never heard of such wisdom in my life.

Nonetheless, we all know Bush/Obama have altruistic motives for the Middle East. It is the naive Middle Easterners and the evil Middle Eastern terrorists who are ruining Bush's/Obama's righteous nation-building of the Middle East. We all know Bush/Obama comprehend the innumerable intricacies of rebuilding the Middle East as they see fit. If Bush/Obama don't know, then they can rely on their advisers, managers, and assistances.

Yes, I agree with you on how "the technological development of weapon has made low-tech weaponry more easily accessible and more user-friendly," but you forgot (if that's the best label) to mention the legal exchange and black-market trade of weapons from powerful nations to weaker nations also play fundamental roles in the distribution of weapons. If the US, China, Russia, Europe, and many other powerful nations ended the sale of weapons to weaker nations, then the latter half would have greatly reduced modern weapons. We all know this end will probably never happen. Selling weapons to a large consumer base is an industry habit, it helps cement military-political relations, and it is backed by tenacious demand from all over the world.

Does this forum have viewers who are from Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, and Pakistan? Can you please tell us about the fabulous effects of nation-building WARS in your nations? Tell us how nation-building WARS are good for the future of current adults, today's children, and future children living in Iraq/Palestine/Iran/Afghanistan/etc.

Please tell Rommel and I how Rommel's quote, "The instinct of survival is the most important in the human being," applies for the Middle East's evil acts of terrors (as described by Bush Co.), especially the criminal terrorists (as judged by Cheney Co.) in Iraq/Palestine/etc. Tell Rommel why Iraqis/Palestinians/Iranians/etc. fight so ferociously for their independence. Tell Rommel how Bush/Obama will be good caretakers for these Middle Eastern people, so these Middle Easterners should embrace Bush's/Obama's (allegedly) altruistic plans for them.

Please tell Rommel and I how you think the nation-building wars in the Middle East (especially for the aforementioned nations) are good for peace and justice in the Middle East, especially the long-term health of the people.

I have read Rommel's trite arguments, similar arguments from Bush and co., and analogous rational from other people. I listened and reread Obama's recent speech about the wars, which was surprisingly similar to Bush's speech about the wars.

I have learned counterarguments from people of Middle Eastern descent either in person or from various mediums. I learned other concepts as well about nation-building in the Middle East and in other nations. I know some of the pros and cons of nation building, and have seen traumatic descriptions and horrific pictures of them. I hope no nation ever tries nation-building on America or wherever I live.

The assumption that one nation can morally and effectively rebuild another nation is poorly justified and proven by history. The ancients have been involved with nation building or making people into their own image. Ancient China tried to do it with bordering people. The same goes for the ancient Middle Eastern civilizations and for ancient European civilizations. Europeans also used nation building to justify European colonialism/international imperialism. In fact, nation building was usually a pretext for hegemony, NOT peace and justice. Most attempts at nation-building have been a disaster, and this is still true for today.

Don't tell me "nation building" does not necessarily mean war. The chance of war as a major ingredient in "nation building" is very high. Even if the nation builder has altruistic motives, the nation builder will probably be deficient in skill, knowledge, and resources to rebuild nations. The real component in moral and effective nation building lies more with the supposed recipients than with the builder.

This is why success was found in West Germany, Japan, and South Korea. This is also why bloody failure was the result of nation-building in North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Palestine/Israel, Iran, Latin America, Africa, etc. The treatment will have a high probability of failure when the patient refuses assistance according health data from psychologists and psychiatrists. Think of how this applies to whole groups of people.

If history is any indication, nation-building wars will most likely worsen the situation in Somalia. Nation-building wars have a high probability of killing hundreds of thousands of Somalians and of declining millions of Somalians' already low quality of life.

Ignoring the piracy problem will allow the problem to continue or end vicariously.

I still stick by my solution for Somalia's pirates: If the Somalians want to solve this problem by discussions and professional coast guards, then opt for the talks. In the meantime, police the Somali waters and repel stubborn Somali pirates.

inframan needs a lesson in political science and history. the reason why germany and japan were successful is because they were already industrialized before the war. they have the "industrial mindset", such as urban population, skilled workers and management, and bureaucracy. other countries failed because they had none of those and a certain intellectually deficient individual running the whitehouse thinks that he can somehow beat those attributes into them, no he cant. so you are wrong. your argument is a classic orientalist argument that even many European and American scholars are now beginning to reject. recommend a few books for you, lets start with edward said's orientalism and harutoonian's empire's new clothes. it'd teach you a lot about why the US failed in iraq.

pla101prc says, "the reason why germany and japan were successful is because they were already industrialized before the war. [emphasis added] they have the "industrial mindset", such as urban population, skilled workers and management, and bureaucracy. other countries failed because they had none of those and a certain intellectually deficient individual running the whitehouse thinks that he can somehow beat those attributes into them, no he cant."

Hahaha, you are so clueless. Post-WW2 Germany/Japan succeeded because they were already industrialized by modern standards???!!! Hahaha. This doesn't explain how feudal Germany/Japan INITIALLY industrialized by modern standards. Modern industries don't just magically appear or come from benevolent and more advanced nations. You're basically saying America has lots of cars because America already had lots of cars to begin with! What stupidity!

pla101prc needs to read more books on politics and economics. pla101prc has backward thinking. Here's a good lesson for pla101prc: a people undergoing industrialization and modernizing does NOT magically happen or primarily come from foreign control. It primarily comes from the people.

Let me give pla101prc a brief lesson:

Successful nation building does NOT depend on (modern) industrialization first and nation building wars second. It depends on the people inside the nation. Ancient civilizations in the Middle East did NOT depend on modern industrialization and other types of modernization to succeed. The same goes with ancient civilizations in Europe and Asia. During the feudal era, there were many successful nations. If you go by certain definitions, then nations are a modern concept, but these definitions are crude and simplistic, because they underestimate the amazing human abilities that lead to a successful nation in various time periods in various locations. Any nation is a complex organism that goes way beyond dictionary definitions.

You're making the same mistake many ancient and feudal Chinese nations did when it came to the northern barbarians. For example, these Chinese people looked down upon the "nationless" Mongols, but the Chinese did not understand the Mongols. The Mongols, for their ancient and feudal time, had optimized their sophisticated society to live in harsh situations. The ancient and feudal Mongols were not idiots or "nationless". In some ways Mongol nations were inferior to Chinese nations, but in other ways, it was superior. Overall, ancient Mongols and feudal Mongols had effective and sophisticated nations for their situation.

Now on to the modern era . . .

Feudal Europe industrialized and modernized NOT because of foreign invasions seeking to modernize Europe and NOT because feudal Europe was already industrialized and already had modern systems. Duh. This is basic information and very simple thinking. I can't believe I have to tell you this. Feudal Europe industrialized and modernized greatly because of the people. The same goes with feudal nations in Japan, South Korea, North Korea, China, and many other nations. I don't have time to teach you about resource accumulation, persistent social adaptations, national defense, civil vs civilian affairs, social justice and morals, and so on, but the key message is that the people are critical elements to their own success, and this includes industrialization and modernization.

Japan and Germany were able to rebuild themselves very quickly after WWII, because their people aspired for reconstructing modernity and had the ability to do so. Same goes with South Korea and Vietnam. It wasn't because they sat around, then did whatever the US commanded, or because they magically found rebuilt industries in front of them. International interactions play large roles in building successful nations, but the key element is the nation's own people.

I still can't believe pla101prc claimed that the requirement for industrialization and modernization is past industrialization and prior modernization (ROFLMAO). Damn he's clueless.

pla101prc: your idiocy in implying how Bush's nation-building in Iraq is failing because antebellum Iraq lacked a previous industry and antecedent modern social systems reveals that you're more naive or mentally deficient than I initially thought. Before the 1990s war, before the years of sanctions, and before the current war, Iraq DID have an industry (with modern sections) and sophisticated social systems for the 1970s and 1980s. It was designed for religious people and by religious people living with few resources in a desert surrounded by unstable politics.

I have met a few Iraqi engineers, Iraqi doctors, Iraqi lawyers, Iraqi researchers, and Iraqi businessmen from much older generations (1960s to 1990s). They are highly INTELLIGENT and CAPABLE people. Their skills are in high demand in modern America. They left Iraq and came to America due to various reasons. It wasn't all due to oppression and wars. Some immigrated because they knew Saddam was not interested in increasing the wealth of Iraq, but America was highly interested in increasing its wealth as much as possible. Talk to Iraqis and read about Iraq from ancient periods to feudal periods to modern times. You'll be amazed at Iraqi capabilities.

Pre-1990s Iraq attacked other nations, but throughout history, Europe, America, Japan, China, and probably all nations have attacked other nations.

Iraq has the ability to industrialize and modernize into a wealthy, successful nation if the Iraqi people want to do so, but to do so, they must greatly increase their consumption of resources, and the Iraqi people must be freed from foreign attacks/nation-building wars. Iraq's proud history strongly indicates the Iraqi people, if left to themselves, will return to being a successful nation that consumes relatively few resources. Just because someone or a nation lives a simple lifestyle does not mean the person or nation is a failure or dumb.

The entire world cannot live as wealthy as Americans with current technology and social systems. The current world would be ruined if everyone lived as wealthy as Americans. Be thankful for nations that succeed without consuming lots of resources.

pla101prc, class is dismissed. If you want, you can write more gibberish and I'll see if I have time to correct your errors.

Nation-building wars have a high probability of failure in ANY nation, including Somalia. I continue to provide sound arguments for how negotiations and policing are superior policies against Somali pirates and international disputes around Somali waters when compared to nation-building wars or ignoring the problem.

I would have give a reply earlier but I was so busy those last few days.

I would like to notice that English is not my first language, I'm French-Canadian and my mother tongue is french, therefore, sometime I don't notice the nuance in some english word.

Like I said before, having an international force in the short-term will control the situation for now, because the government of Somalia doesn't have the power to intervene. But on longer term, ONLY nation-building is thinkable.

For me, nation-building isn't always involving war. For sure, in our mediatic society, we keep hearing about war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in my research department, we call it Imposing Democracy by Force, which is totally different in our mind. Nation-building can be done by non-governmental organisation, nation-building isn't about war. UNICEF is a nation-builder, OXFAM, the Rec Cross and Red Crescent are nation-builders.

Recently, the government of Somalia is have a series of new reforms, trying to revitalize the economy, reform the armed forces (they re-establish the Navy like 5 month ago...), invest in education, creating a social judicial system, etc. This is also called nation-building. This will work because it's their own will. This will take at least two decades, because those who will be able to go forward and change their world is still studying in elementary school, it's still the path that a nation has choose to carve by herself. THIS is what I mean by nation-building. My believe is that WE, western civilizations has to support those initiatives. Only when this land will be able to call herself a country with her own sovereignty and power to act, she will be able to deal with her problems like piracy. A peaceful nation-building (like the current one) is the best solution in my opinion.

I think that negotiation and policing are part of the greater whole, that alone, without a country own infrastructure to support it, it will not work. Only when Somalia wouldn't have interior trouble, when her population will have a good access to education and healthcare, when this country will be having a good and working economical system, the leaders will turn their attention toward pirates. But to come at this point, they need to build their nation.

I don't know much about the current situation in Iraq (especially when my country is not following what happening there) and I haven't been in the field Afghanistan but following my read of Canada's Quarterly Report on Afghanistan, nation-building wars can work if managed correctly. But remember, I don't think that nation-building war is the best solution.

Here are a few summary of the last four Canada's Quarterly report.

Second Quarterly report
* Each of the five Afghan army battalions (kandaks) in Kandahar now has an effective strength of over 70%. They are gaining in both confidence and capability.
* Through an aggressive demining campaign, 180 square kilometres of land was cleared of mines and made available for community use, including for agriculture. The number of mine victims declined by 19 percent from last year.
* The goal of the Dahla Dam is to create 10,000 seasonal jobs and provide the basis for expanded agricultural activity in the region. With a more secure and stable water supply, farmers can begin to grow crops that require more water, such as fruit crops. This project will focus on legitimate agriculture development and will include activities such as supporting cropping alternatives, supporting better on-farm water management, promoting increased access to markets, and providing agriculture credit to enable farmers to get their crops in and growing.
* Preliminary work for the Dahla Dam has been initiated and it is expected that a Canadian contractor will be announced shortly to take the work forward.
* Over 60 infrastructure projects were completed in key districts between June and September. In addition to providing employment, these projects allow for the increased movement of people and goods.
* Three new schools have been completed. One of these completions falls within the period of the report released today. There are 14 more schools under construction as part of the effort to build, repair or expand 50 schools in key districts of Kandahar.
* Education efforts have resulted in 6 million children attending school in Afghanistan today (one-third of them girls), compared to just 700,000 (all of them boys) in schools in 2001.
* Close to 11,000 Afghans (9,000 women) continued to receive literacy training this past quarter through Canadian support. This number continues to rise.
* A total of 7 million children have now received vaccinations through our polio eradication program. From January to September 2008, 20 new cases have been reported in the southern region, demonstrating a compelling need for the campaign. Canada is prepared to meet this challenge.

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Third quarterly report
* Increased capacity of the Afghan National Army (ANA), including near-autonomous operational capability for the Afghan national army brigade headquarters in Kandahar province.
* The selection of SNC-Lavalin and Hydrosult for a Canadian joint venture to manage the three-year, $50 million, rehabilitation of the Dahla Dam and irrigation system. This dam will create 10,000 seasonal jobs and revitalize agriculture and the economy of the Kandahar region.
* Ongoing school construction with one school completed during the quarter (bringing the total to three) and another 22 under construction. We aim to build, expand or repair 50 schools in key districts by 2011.
* Literacy training for nearly 11,000 adults, including close to 9,000 women, continued over the quarter.
* Support for Afghanistan’s national polio vaccination program. While challenges associated with the eradication of polio remain, about 7.1 million children were vaccinated nationally during this quarter.
*Since January 2006, 346 square kilometers of land have been cleared of mines across Afghanistan – thereby permitting this land to be put to productive use.
* Support preparations for the Afghan-led 2009 presidential and provincial council elections by providing financial and technical support.

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Fourth quarterly report
* By the end of the quarter, Afghan soldiers and police were mounting a growing number of effective and independent operations.
* Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) have been finding more IEDs as a result of their improved capability to solicit tips from the public and detect IEDs.

Through Canadian mentoring and training efforts, the ANSF have demonstrated marked improvements in Kandahar:

* The highest capacity milestone was maintained by the Afghan National Army Brigade Headquarters and one battalion, while the second-highest milestone was reached by four other battalions.
* A literacy project was launched and facilities were upgraded for Afghan National Police in Kandahar.

Consistent with the international focus on the region, Canada brought together Afghan and Pakistani officials in Dubai, where they adopted an unprecedented joint border management plan.

Afghans completed voter registration for presidential and provincial council elections in August—a major event in building capacity for democratic governance and an example of security success for ANSF. In Kandahar, 300,000 more Afghans have been registered to vote.

Under Canada’s three signature projects:

* A new bridge was built and initial assessment was completed by the Canadian firms responsible for implementing the Dahla Dam signature project, which will add 10,000 seasonal jobs when complete.
* Under Canada’s signature education project, two more schools were completed, bringing the total to five completed and 25 more under construction. We are on track to building, expanding or repairing 50 schools in key districts by 2011.
* Continuing Afghanistan’s national polio vaccination program, more than 350,000 Kandahari children were vaccinated in campaigns led by UN agencies, though many children were missed as a result of a lack of security in some areas.

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Fifth Quarterly report
* Under a Canadian-supported project to clear landmines and other explosives, training began for 80 locally recruited deminers in Kandahar, and an additional 270,000 square metres of land were cleared.
* As a result of the mentoring work of the Canadian Forces, there is an increased capacity on the part of the Afghan National Army in Kandahar to plan and conduct operations.
* Five schools have been built so far this year, and 28 more are under construction.
* One hundred teachers were trained under Canadian programming.
* Work on the Dahla Dam and canal system is on track, with a new bridge being used regularly by Kandaharis.
* A police training and mentoring program was expanded to include a major increase in Afghan National Police recruitment.
* Canadian civilians and soldiers supported Afghan preparations for the August 20 elections.

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PLA101PRC and Infra Man99 you are having a Semantic argument PLA101PRC is right in pointing out that Germany and Japan were industrialized, and developed prior to them launching wars of aggression.

Infra Man99 is also right in pointing out that PLA101PRC did not explain how Germany & Japan came to being industrialized in the first place.

Germany in the post Reformation era was relatively isolated until the late nineteenth century with the exception of the Napoleonic wars and developed in isolation until they became a unified nation in the 1860's.

Japan also followed a similar way on till the 1880's.

I will point out that South America, Africa, Asia were denied this luxury.

Prior the the mid sixteenth century most countries/Civilizations developed along this pattern of developing in isolation.

cmb=1968 said:

PLA101PRC and Infra Man99 toy are having a Semantic argument PLA101PRC is right in pointing out that Germany and Japan were industrialized, and developed prior to them launching wars of aggression.

Infra Man99 is also right in pointing out that PLA101PRC did not explain how Germany & Japan came to being industrialized in the first place.

Germany in the post Reformation era was relatively isolated until the late nineteenth century with the exception of the Napoleonic wars and developed in isolation until they became a unified nation in the 1860's.

Japan also followed a similar way on till the 1880's.

I will point out that South America, Africa, Asia were denied this luxury.

Prior the the mid sixteenth century most countries/Civilizations developed along this pattern of developing in isolation.

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trust me i know my german history. the point is, the idea of compulsory nation building doesnt work. you have to realize that there is an entire social foundation behind modernization (and there are different modes of modernity for different nations i wont get into that any further). Germany was influenced by 1848 revolutions and took a easy train-ride during the second industrial revolution, Japan was fortunate to have a unique cultural and social formation that allows them to adapt to any sort of change without trouble. but either way there is a whole friggin social setting behind modernity, urban centres, concentration of labour, education, secularization, effective bureaucracy, private properties etc. does somalia have ANY of those? piracy is the least of the issues a somalian have to worry about. and piracy isnt an obstruction to the making of a social condition fit for modernity, it is the result. anyone that claims that if you take out piracy and somalia will modernize is wrong, because piracy is the symptom of the somali issues and it will only manifest itself in other forms even if you are lucky enough to eradicate this one.