Father of China's missile program dies

Troika

Junior Member
That makes no sense. Vesicles isn't generalizing, you are. When you dispute his statement, you are basically saying that wanting to stay in the US (or other foreign country) is a bad thing for a Chinese. That's a hell of a generalization.

Overseas Chinese have every reason to be proud of their choice. They can do much more for China overseas than they can back in China. In fact, there is a well-known adage among overseas Chinese: "You only understand patriotism once you leave your homeland."

Believe me when I say there is NO shortage of smart and capable people in China, and unless you possess expertise in cutting edge technology that does not exist in China, the only thing you'll be doing when you go back to China is to compete with other Chinese for a job.

On the other hand, if you stay overseas, you will be able to promote Chinese culture, values, and interests. Even if such contributions may be small and indirect, they are still more than you could ever do if you stayed in China.

:roll:

Haven't had such a good laugh for a long time. But don't lets go any further off topic than it had already got.

Edit: If I really must give reasons...
1) Chinese emigrants do not stay overseas because they want to spread China's culture and safeguard her interests, that's just an audacious claim without any backup. They emigrate for the same reason anybody ELSE emigrate. Better money, better life, better prospects. China is not special.
2) A cursory glance at the overseas Chinese community shows you that a lot of them don't even speak Chinese or know the first thing about China, more than an ordinarily interested native. Once you get past the first generation, something called assimilation kicks in. They grow up in their name homeland, have friends from said homeland, immerse themselves in said homeland. They're American/ Australian/ Canadian/ Whatever. You are racist if you assume that the Chinese for some reason are immune to assimilation and stay Chinese mystically. Even in the more isolated communities like South East Asia the Chinese assimilate.
3) If for some reason the first two for some reason is untrue, what you are suggesting is that Chinese stay 'alien' for some reason, and continue to act on the interests of a nebulous ancestral homeland. Think carefully before you suggest that, because you are tarring a fairly large chunk of people with one brush
4) Even if they retain 'Chinese culture' for some reason, what does that mean? Does that mean they'll act in China's interest against their adoptive homelands? Fat chance.
5) The generalisation is not even true. China is experiencing a big bottleneck in management and other fields. There is a reason why hundreds of thousands of Western ex-pats work in China in creative, management and technical fields, and it's not just because they are Western multinational's men on the ground
6) Are you honestly saying that people WITH cutting edge expertise should go back to China? I promise you they don't. Go check out the top Chinese-American scientists in America and see how many are in a rush to go back to China. I can think of maybe 4.

Emigration is a personal choice and a freedom and is to be respected. I am an ex-patriate myself. But to dress it up as patriotism is mental gymnastic of the highest order and frankly smacks of hypocrisy.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
:roll:

Haven't had such a good laugh for a long time. But don't lets go any further off topic than it had already got.

Edit: If I really must give reasons...
1) Chinese emigrants do not stay overseas because they want to spread China's culture and safeguard her interests, that's just an audacious claim without any backup. They emigrate for the same reason anybody ELSE emigrate. Better money, better life, better prospects. China is not special.
2) A cursory glance at the overseas Chinese community shows you that a lot of them don't even speak Chinese or know the first thing about China, more than an ordinarily interested native. Once you get past the first generation, something called assimilation kicks in. They grow up in their name homeland, have friends from said homeland, immerse themselves in said homeland. They're American/ Australian/ Canadian/ Whatever. You are racist if you assume that the Chinese for some reason are immune to assimilation and stay Chinese mystically. Even in the more isolated communities like South East Asia the Chinese assimilate.
3) If for some reason the first two for some reason is untrue, what you are suggesting is that Chinese stay 'alien' for some reason, and continue to act on the interests of a nebulous ancestral homeland. Think carefully before you suggest that, because you are tarring a fairly large chunk of people with one brush
4) Even if they retain 'Chinese culture' for some reason, what does that mean? Does that mean they'll act in China's interest against their adoptive homelands? Fat chance.
5) The generalisation is not even true. China is experiencing a big bottleneck in management and other fields. There is a reason why hundreds of thousands of Western ex-pats work in China in creative, management and technical fields, and it's not just because they are Western multinational's men on the ground
6) Are you honestly saying that people WITH cutting edge expertise should go back to China? I promise you they don't. Go check out the top Chinese-American scientists in America and see how many are in a rush to go back to China. I can think of maybe 4.

Emigration is a personal choice and a freedom and is to be respected. I am an ex-patriate myself. But to dress it up as patriotism is mental gymnastic of the highest order and frankly smacks of hypocrisy.

You are rather short-sighted in your analysis.

1) The spread of Chinese culture, values, and interests need not be intentional, or politically motivated. Every person brings their own cultural values with them every time they interact with another person. Chinese people will join cultural events, community groups, and make socio-political decisions that are based on Chinese cultural values and interests. THAT is how overseas Chinese promote Chinese culture, values, and interests, and there is nothing "nebulous", "alien", or "tarring" about it!

2) Assimilation happens depending on the family. Some Chinese families decide to let their children assimilate, others strive to have their children learn the Chinese language and culture. You are also wrong in claiming that 2nd and 3rd gen Chinese cease to identify themselves as Chinese. Look at San Francisco: there are ethnic Chinese communities over there that were established in the 19th century. Look at how enthusiastic they were about Beijing getting the 2008 olympics. Look at the turn out and the outpouring of support among SF Chinese communities that happened during the torch relay.

Funny how some people automatically brand as "racism" any mention of an ethnic community being "special". What you fail to realize, however, is that the Chinese people is special. It is the Chinese culture that makes them special. Yes, the same culture that has enabled the Chinese to assimilate two foreign dynasties and turn them into Chinese dynasties. The same culture that has allowed a people to survive millenia of political upheaval and still retain a national identity. Anyone who denies the power of culture is just ignorant, or willfully blind for the sake of PC.

3) If you think overseas Chinese are not interested in defending Chinese interests, then you've obviously never read Chinese newspapers during the Tibet riots, or heard about the March 29 rallies, seen the nigh-unanimous support for the Beijing olympics, or the out-pouring of contributions for the Sichuan Earthquake.

4) No, I'm not saying people with cutting-edge expertise should go back to China. Whether they do or not is entirely their own decision. What I am doing is speaking out against the automatic (and entirely wrong) assumption that one can only contribute to China's development by going back to China.

Also, this whole "management-bottleneck" thing is bogus. I'm not saying that China doesn't need quality management personelle. I'm saying the idea that Western-trained management professionals can alleviate any kind of economic bottle-neck in China is nebulous at best, and wishful-thinking at worst. Western business dynamics is very different from Chinese business dynamics, and issues of corruption (in public or private sectors) aren't going to be resolved by an MBA from a western institution.

Finally, patriotism is a choice. You might not be interested in it, but that doesn't mean other people aren't. There is nothing conflicting about making a better life for yourself overseas while promoting the interests of your homeland at the same time. Not unless you are an adherent of the idea that global politics is a zero-sum game.

Personally, I don't wish to see a repeat of the Cold-War era, and I believe that globalization can be an engine for global cooperation. I also think that a global balance (as opposed to imbalance) of power is more conducive toward achieving that goal.

Edit:
Ever read about the contributions of overseas Chinese toward the Resistance War against Japan? Did you know that Sun Zhongshan's (Yat-sen) brother lived in America, and that he supported Sun Zhongshan financially throughout his revolutionary activities? Still think overseas Chinese don't act in China's interests?
 
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vesicles

Colonel
Wow, didn't realize that I started a whole discussion on this.

Well, I am NOT trying to generalize anything. In fact, I was NOT even trying to say that wanting to stay in the States is a good thing. All I was trying to say in my original post is that whether one wants to stay in a foreign country or to go back to China does NOT affect his/her greatness and my respect for them at all. what determines their greatness is their contribution to mankind, which has nothing to do with nationality.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Vesicles your statement about "the fact that staying in the US is not a bad thing for a Chinese" is just your own "fact", please do not make it sound like you are speaking for every single Chinese scientist in US. I am not trying to attack you personally at all, but please do not make false generial statement like that where you make every single Chinese scientist here sound like a no-heart human being who forgot their homeland the moment they saw something better in term of material.

How did I make "every Chinese scientist sound like a no-heart human"? I was simply stating that whether one wants to stay abroad or go back to China does NOT affect their greatness as a scientist. I was telling people NOT to judge a person simlpy from where he/she decides to live. I think you are the one who is generalizing things. you imply that wanting to stay abroad makes a person "no-heart", which is very judgemental, in my humble opinion. This is to me a very blanketed statement. Plenty people go abroad for various reasons. Even many founding members of the CCP lived abroad for extensive amount of time. Heck, even the idea of communism came from abroad.

FYI, I am very proud of my Chinese heritage.
 
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Johann

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Geographer,

I don't think the FBI in 1949 had any idea how far Mao was willing to go to bring back Chinese scientists and engineers, and the depth of Mao's interest in strategic weapons programmes.

If the US Govt. was willing to revoke the security clearance of Robert Oppenheimer, a scientist as famous as Einstein, why wouldn't they be willing to do it to Qian who was a public unknown outside the rocketry circles?

After 1978, the pendulum swung the other way, and the US nuclear programme found itself penetrated at multiple levels.

Both represent irrational extremes
 

Troika

Junior Member
You are rather short-sighted in your analysis.

We shall see.

1) The spread of Chinese culture, values, and interests need not be intentional, or politically motivated. Every person brings their own cultural values with them every time they interact with another person. Chinese people will join cultural events, community groups, and make socio-political decisions that are based on Chinese cultural values and interests. THAT is how overseas Chinese promote Chinese culture, values, and interests, and there is nothing "nebulous", "alien", or "tarring" about it!

Sounds alright, except:

Every individual has his own characteristics. Some Chinese people are articulate and charming, they no doubt promote. Others are not so much. They probably have a negative effect, if anything. Take an example, Chinese counter-protests against Olympic torch protests or Tibet protests, and let's see if a local western find that a particularly fine promotion of Chinese culture, values and interests.

I am not sure how you can possibly assume that just because a Chinese person brings some aspect of China with them they would automatically promote anything. Give you another example. Mid to late 19th century Chinese immigrants to America were a very hard working people. Some of the ideas they bring to the Western mind about China is the stereotypical pig-tailed, dirty, scrapping, dog-eating 'Chinaman'. Still think all overseas Chinese promote Chinese culture just by interacting?

2) Assimilation happens depending on the family. Some Chinese families decide to let their children assimilate, others strive to have their children learn the Chinese language and culture. You are also wrong in claiming that 2nd and 3rd gen Chinese cease to identify themselves as Chinese. Look at San Francisco: there are ethnic Chinese communities over there that were established in the 19th century. Look at how enthusiastic they were about Beijing getting the 2008 olympics. Look at the turn out and the outpouring of support among SF Chinese communities that happened during the torch relay.

Yes? ANd what's the percentage in each? Are you claiming that an actual majority of persons of Chinese ancestry self-identify as Chinese? If so, show some evidence to back up your claim. Preferably with some statistics, otherwise this is all meaningless. And since you called anecdotal to support your claim, I'll come right back with 'just because your parents want to immerse you in Chinese culture, doesn't mean you'll actually like it or do it, look at any number of 2nd generation persons of Chinese ancestry who rebel against that'.

And oddly enough, you can actually celebrate a sporting event without actually supporting the country. And San Francisco, believe it or not, is an insignficant part of the persons of Chinese ancestry as a whole. I fail to see how you can generalise a bit of real estate with Chinese signage and people turning out on parades does not actually make them Chinese? I am sure they turn out in force to celebrate Christmas, too, does that make them all Christians? At its highest it makes them Chinese-Americans. It does not make them Chinese, and therein lies a big difference..

You fail to understand that people are complex animals. They can hold somewhat different and maybe contradictory ideas in their heads, like 'I am Canadian' and 'I am Chinese' to form their own unique identity. So they can go on a Chinese New Year parade one day and then happily go to Canada Day celebration the next (well, not literally the next day). It's when the chips are down and it comes down to a choice between, say, China and their adoptive homeland - or that of their own - interests that one can determine their loyalty. I want you to look me in the eye and tell me that an 'average person of Chinese ancestry' will put Chinese interests first.

Funny how some people automatically brand as "racism" any mention of an ethnic community being "special". What you fail to realize, however, is that the Chinese people is special. It is the Chinese culture that makes them special. Yes, the same culture that has enabled the Chinese to assimilate two foreign dynasties and turn them into Chinese dynasties. The same culture that has allowed a people to survive millenia of political upheaval and still retain a national identity. Anyone who denies the power of culture is just ignorant, or willfully blind for the sake of PC.

Racist rubbish. I look at Mongolia, they use OUR script, the Cyrillic script, and many of them speak Russian. They don't look assimilated Chinese to me. Just because you can flood Inner Mongolia with immigrants doesn't mean you've successfully assimilated the Mongolian people.

And guess what, assimilating a conqueror is hardly an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. Quite a few peoples did it. Norse and Huns disappeared into Christian European, Rusyn' adopted Greek Orthodoxy and script, the Turks saw themselves and successors of Rome, Persia swallowed up her Arab conquerors, and India ate up more conquerors than you can count. The fact that you actually think this is a unique phenomenon speaks volumes about your skewed view, and even blinder to the fact that assimilation goes both ways. There is a lot of 'barbarian' blood in Chinese culture, starting from the semi-'barbaric' Qin and Chu kingdoms through the volkwanderung of the 4th to 6th centuries, the Tang dynasty, and so on. China's 'identity' CHANGED. You can blindly close your eyes and claim that China retain the same national identity over the last 2 millennia of a sometimes-united Chinese state, but that is equally ignorant, if not more so.

There are plenty of other peoples who endured similar or worse and retained a similar sense of national identity over a similar period. The Jews, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, even the Turks have an astonishingly robust national consciousness stretching over 1300 years.

China is not unique or special, get over it.

3) If you think overseas Chinese are not interested in defending Chinese interests, then you've obviously never read Chinese newspapers during the Tibet riots, or heard about the March 29 rallies, seen the nigh-unanimous support for the Beijing olympics, or the out-pouring of contributions for the Sichuan Earthquake.

I was in Hong Kong when that happened, the government parade was notable by its sparse attendance. And this is Hong Kong, hardly what you'd called 'overseas Chinese'.

Hogwash. I donated 5,000 HKD to Sichuan, are you saying I am Chinese now? Having sympathies due to common cultural heritage is not the same as identifying oneself as Chinese. JAPAN and KOREA gave large amounts of donation, and so did the largely hostile Taiwan. Are they Chinese too?

4) No, I'm not saying people with cutting-edge expertise should go back to China. Whether they do or not is entirely their own decision. What I am doing is speaking out against the automatic (and entirely wrong) assumption that one can only contribute to China's development by going back to China.

I accept that is what you say. Here's an interesting piece of statistics. Over 90% of the 54,000 or so Chinese people who gained PhDs in America since the reopening of overseas studies for PRC residents elected to stay in America, you may take that how you will, I am sure YOU think they all have China in their hearts.

Also, this whole "management-bottleneck" thing is bogus. I'm not saying that China doesn't need quality management personelle. I'm saying the idea that Western-trained management professionals can alleviate any kind of economic bottle-neck in China is nebulous at best, and wishful-thinking at worst. Western business dynamics is very different from Chinese business dynamics, and issues of corruption (in public or private sectors) aren't going to be resolved by an MBA from a western institution.

Except China keeps on employing hundreds of thousands of Westerners and Western-trained managers. The problem with you is I debate with facts, and you with rhetoric and opinion.

Finally, patriotism is a choice. You might not be interested in it, but that doesn't mean other people aren't. There is nothing conflicting about making a better life for yourself overseas while promoting the interests of your homeland at the same time. Not unless you are an adherent of the idea that global politics is a zero-sum game.

Are you of the opinion that it's NEVER a zero-sum game? Sometimes there may be none. An Englishman emigrating to America or Australia doesn't really change much of anything. But when there is often power contradictions between your adoptive homeland and your ancestral ones, conflict of interest WILL arise. I am astonished that you cited the Tibet and Olympic counter-protests as examples and yet fail to see that. That's wilful blindness at its worse. Anybody can see that China and the West has areas of conflict.

So what do you serve if a conflict boils over over Taiwan? It's not always Chinese cultural evenings and Chinatown new year parades, you know. When the conflicts are below the surface, it's easy. Try looking at times when things are tough.

Personally, I don't wish to see a repeat of the Cold-War era, and I believe that globalization can be an engine for global cooperation. I also think that a global balance (as opposed to imbalance) of power is more conducive toward achieving that goal.

I don't even see what that has to do with the issue. I wish to see World Peace, too, doesn't mean we are going to get along with the Latvians tomorrow.


Edit:
Ever read about the contributions of overseas Chinese toward the Resistance War against Japan? Did you know that Sun Zhongshan's (Yat-sen) brother lived in America, and that he supported Sun Zhongshan financially throughout his revolutionary activities? Still think overseas Chinese don't act in China's interests?

Isolated examples. That's like saying since individual Japanese helped Dr. Sun, therefore Japan contributed greatly to China's revolution. The fact that you take something that happened a century ago and somehow generalised that into something that is true generally speaks volume of the validity of your argument.

Why don't you consider the nation of Singapore? An entire nation of OVerseas Chinese, do they always act for China's best interests?
The crux of the matter is that you made an extremely bold claim that overseas Chinese are out there to promote Chinese interests, I have yet to see a single piece of actual evidence backing this up. Chinese emigrants are people just like any other sort of emigrants, they emigrate for their own personal reasons, they do not go out there for the good of China as a general rule. Back up your assertions with evidence and reasoning, retract it.
 

solarz

Brigadier
We shall see.

Sounds alright, except:

Every individual has his own characteristics. Some Chinese people are articulate and charming, they no doubt promote. Others are not so much. They probably have a negative effect, if anything. Take an example, Chinese counter-protests against Olympic torch protests or Tibet protests, and let's see if a local western find that a particularly fine promotion of Chinese culture, values and interests.

I am not sure how you can possibly assume that just because a Chinese person brings some aspect of China with them they would automatically promote anything. Give you another example. Mid to late 19th century Chinese immigrants to America were a very hard working people. Some of the ideas they bring to the Western mind about China is the stereotypical pig-tailed, dirty, scrapping, dog-eating 'Chinaman'. Still think all overseas Chinese promote Chinese culture just by interacting?

So let me get this straight, you think that overseas Chinese communities have no influence on the culture of their local communities just because some Chinese don't value their culture, and that 19th century Chinese immigrants were at the bottom of the social echelon? And you claim to be arguing with facts? Maybe you should work on your logic instead.

Unless, you're claiming that not all overseas Chinese promote their culture? Well guess what? I agree! Whether or not overseas Chinese promote their culture or choose to assimilate is a personal choice. However, I am here saying that:

1) Overseas Chinese have more opportunities to promote the Chinese culture than those in China, and

2) The spread of Chinese culture and values need not be intentional. Any socio-political interaction carries with it cultural values and interests.



Yes? ANd what's the percentage in each? Are you claiming that an actual majority of persons of Chinese ancestry self-identify as Chinese? If so, show some evidence to back up your claim. Preferably with some statistics, otherwise this is all meaningless. And since you called anecdotal to support your claim, I'll come right back with 'just because your parents want to immerse you in Chinese culture, doesn't mean you'll actually like it or do it, look at any number of 2nd generation persons of Chinese ancestry who rebel against that'.

And oddly enough, you can actually celebrate a sporting event without actually supporting the country. And San Francisco, believe it or not, is an insignficant part of the persons of Chinese ancestry as a whole. I fail to see how you can generalise a bit of real estate with Chinese signage and people turning out on parades does not actually make them Chinese? I am sure they turn out in force to celebrate Christmas, too, does that make them all Christians? At its highest it makes them Chinese-Americans. It does not make them Chinese, and therein lies a big difference..

You fail to understand that people are complex animals. They can hold somewhat different and maybe contradictory ideas in their heads, like 'I am Canadian' and 'I am Chinese' to form their own unique identity. So they can go on a Chinese New Year parade one day and then happily go to Canada Day celebration the next (well, not literally the next day). It's when the chips are down and it comes down to a choice between, say, China and their adoptive homeland - or that of their own - interests that one can determine their loyalty. I want you to look me in the eye and tell me that an 'average person of Chinese ancestry' will put Chinese interests first.

Way to go on a rant that has NOTHING to do with the original issue. I never raised the issue of to what degree various overseas Chinese groups identify with being Chinese as opposed to their adopted country. I am saying that overseas Chinese can and do support the interests of their homeland.

Your insistence on framing "Chinese interest" as in opposition of their adopted country's interest is just a red-herring.


Racist rubbish. I look at Mongolia, they use OUR script, the Cyrillic script, and many of them speak Russian. They don't look assimilated Chinese to me. Just because you can flood Inner Mongolia with immigrants doesn't mean you've successfully assimilated the Mongolian people.

And guess what, assimilating a conqueror is hardly an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. Quite a few peoples did it. Norse and Huns disappeared into Christian European, Rusyn' adopted Greek Orthodoxy and script, the Turks saw themselves and successors of Rome, Persia swallowed up her Arab conquerors, and India ate up more conquerors than you can count. The fact that you actually think this is a unique phenomenon speaks volumes about your skewed view, and even blinder to the fact that assimilation goes both ways. There is a lot of 'barbarian' blood in Chinese culture, starting from the semi-'barbaric' Qin and Chu kingdoms through the volkwanderung of the 4th to 6th centuries, the Tang dynasty, and so on. China's 'identity' CHANGED. You can blindly close your eyes and claim that China retain the same national identity over the last 2 millennia of a sometimes-united Chinese state, but that is equally ignorant, if not more so.

There are plenty of other peoples who endured similar or worse and retained a similar sense of national identity over a similar period. The Jews, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, even the Turks have an astonishingly robust national consciousness stretching over 1300 years.

China is not unique or special, get over it.

The Chinese culture need not be unique to be special. If you feel that there's nothing impressive about the Chinese culture in history, that's your prerogative. However, the fact remains that China is the only one of the 4 ancient civilizations today that not only survived in its entirety, but is still prospering.



I was in Hong Kong when that happened, the government parade was notable by its sparse attendance. And this is Hong Kong, hardly what you'd called 'overseas Chinese'.

Hogwash. I donated 5,000 HKD to Sichuan, are you saying I am Chinese now? Having sympathies due to common cultural heritage is not the same as identifying oneself as Chinese. JAPAN and KOREA gave large amounts of donation, and so did the largely hostile Taiwan. Are they Chinese too?

Did you ever take propositional calculus? A => B does not imply that B => A. Just because overseas Chinese donating to the Sichuan earthquake implies that they act in China's interest, doesn't mean that acting in China's interests makes you an overseas Chinese.


I accept that is what you say. Here's an interesting piece of statistics. Over 90% of the 54,000 or so Chinese people who gained PhDs in America since the reopening of overseas studies for PRC residents elected to stay in America, you may take that how you will, I am sure YOU think they all have China in their hearts.

Okay, and that invalidates my argument.... how?


Except China keeps on employing hundreds of thousands of Westerners and Western-trained managers. The problem with you is I debate with facts, and you with rhetoric and opinion.

Sure, hundreds of thousands? How about you back that up with statistics, hmmm?

On second thought, I don't care. You see, unlike you, I actually know how Chinese society works. Western degrees are like a fad in China right now. Chinese go study abroad to "镀金" (get plated in gold). In other words, to spruce up their resume. And guess what? A management-related diploma is just about the most cost-effective way to do that: it looks impressive, you don't need a specific educational background, it's relatively quick to complete (often in one year or less), and nobody back home will ever realize that you just sat through a bunch of BS courses any 1st year Psych student can figure out on their own. In fact, my cousin's girlfriend just completed one such diploma herself... in 4 months. I guess she figures into your "hundreds of thousands" statistic as well, eh?


Are you of the opinion that it's NEVER a zero-sum game? Sometimes there may be none. An Englishman emigrating to America or Australia doesn't really change much of anything. But when there is often power contradictions between your adoptive homeland and your ancestral ones, conflict of interest WILL arise. I am astonished that you cited the Tibet and Olympic counter-protests as examples and yet fail to see that. That's wilful blindness at its worse. Anybody can see that China and the West has areas of conflict.

So what do you serve if a conflict boils over over Taiwan? It's not always Chinese cultural evenings and Chinatown new year parades, you know. When the conflicts are below the surface, it's easy. Try looking at times when things are tough.

I bolded that part. Read it again. Are you honestly saying that by supporting the Beijing Olympics, and by denouncing Western Media's falsehood-laden propaganda on the Tibet riots, overseas Chinese are acting against their adopted country's interests????

Gee, and all this time I thought I was living in a democratic country, where you know, people actually respect TRUTH and FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.


Isolated examples. That's like saying since individual Japanese helped Dr. Sun, therefore Japan contributed greatly to China's revolution. The fact that you take something that happened a century ago and somehow generalised that into something that is true generally speaks volume of the validity of your argument.

If you think that the contributions of overseas Chinese during the Sino-Japanese war were "isolated examples", you need to learn your history.


Why don't you consider the nation of Singapore? An entire nation of OVerseas Chinese, do they always act for China's best interests?
The crux of the matter is that you made an extremely bold claim that overseas Chinese are out there to promote Chinese interests, I have yet to see a single piece of actual evidence backing this up. Chinese emigrants are people just like any other sort of emigrants, they emigrate for their own personal reasons, they do not go out there for the good of China as a general rule. Back up your assertions with evidence and reasoning, retract it.

Okay dude, here's what I originally wrote:

On the other hand, if you stay overseas, you will be able to promote Chinese culture, values, and interests. Even if such contributions may be small and indirect, they are still more than you could ever do if you stayed in China.

Where does that say "overseas Chinese will always act in China's interests"?

You talk about evidence? I have given you plenty of evidence to support the above statement. However, you seem to be under the impression that I claimed that overseas Chinese are a monolithic Borg-like entity acting toward the best interests of the mothership.

Well, if you chose to understand it that way, that's your failing.
 

Damingli85

Junior Member
I think you guys only heard the story from one side and believes everything wikipedia offers........ Qian of course wanted to stay in the States for obvious reasons, he was a scientist and his research is his life but If Qian so disliked the idea of going back to China, why would he help China at all all when he was "forced" to return. From what you guys are saying, he was bascially "kidnapped" in a fashion. United States is much more advanced than China in term of living standard for normal people like us as I lived in China in the first half of my life and know the difference quite well. But just having a nice house and a car is not the dream for everyone, and that is why a lot of scientists still returned back then and why people still will these days. Vesicles your statement about "the fact that staying in the US is not a bad thing for a Chinese" is just your own "fact", please do not make it sound like you are speaking for every single Chinese scientist in US. I am not trying to attack you personally at all, but please do not make false generial statement like that where you make every single Chinese scientist here sound like a no-heart human being who forgot their homeland the moment they saw something better in term of material.
If what you say is true, then please don't make generalizations about others too. My uncle is a chemist and he wanted ( he is a citizen now) to stay here and he did.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Throughout human society, a relative few are willing to sacrifice their own quality of life to improve the quality of life of others, and for that, they are exalted as heroes. But "others" who? It's expected in almost all societies to care for yourself, your spouse, children, parents, and relatives. It's encouraged by most societies to work for the well-being of other citizens of your country, but not typically expected. To be fair, not every person has the ability even if he or she has the inclination. But, those that do are distinguished. So is it fair to criticize those that do not or could not? From a philosophical point of view, it's not clear at all. But a society or group which expects this of its members and criticizes when its members fail to contribute has a comparative advantage. This evolutionary/social psychologists' argument would conclude that a society faulting people for not contributing when they can is as justified as selfishness and caring for one's genetic relatives is for individuals. My conclusion is, the person who criticizes others for emigrating is justified from the point of view of a member of a society which seeks self preservation, and a person who emigrates is justified from the point of view of the individual. So it comes down to whose interests do you value more? I don't think there is a right or wrong, only competing interests. One's stance is just a reflection of one's interests, and one's arguments often times are created after coming to the conclusion, which is perfectly normal human behavior.
 
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