Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

marclees said:
It would be interesting to see how the USN would fare against the Iranian navy since the probability of conflict is the highest given the current tension; the Iranian Navy are reportedly armed with the Sunburn and Klub.
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The USN would wipe the floor with the Iranian Navy. No carriers would even enter the Gulf. They would stand off, out in the deep water in the Arabian Sea. Iran's Kilos would most likely try to go out and engage them but if they did the Straits of Hormuz would end up playing the reverse role and being a bottleneck for the Iranians; the USN would have it covered with SSNs. The rest of Iran's navy would be picked apart by the carriers airwings and TLACM strikes from the battlegroups etc.

If Iran's Kilos laid low waited for the majority of the USNs assets to enter the Gulf (a better strategy), they would still be in trouble because the USN would not do so until the Iranian Navy's surface assets had been entirely destroyed, and most of their air force and missle assets, because to do otherwise would be far too risky. Thus the USN would be able to hunt them freely without any pressure from Iran's other assets. Furthermore they might have to wait for quite a while, which would test their endurance.

I'm not saying the USN wouldn't suffer casualties. It's quite possible that surface combatants in the Gulf could be lost. Aircraft certainly would be downed. But if you think that Iran's navy is getting anywhere near the carriers or majorly slowing down the US's operational timetable, you are sadly mistaken.
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

marclees posted;

It would be interesting to see how the USN would fare against the Iranian navy since the probability of conflict is the highest given the current tension; the Iranian Navy are reportedly armed with the Sunburn and Klub.
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I agree with Finn's assessment. I think the greatest threat to the USN from Iran would be her subs..And of course if a conflict did arise expect the USN CVNs to exit the gulf and operate in the Indian Ocean as Finn has pointed out. If such a scenario did occur the USAF would provide AWACS and Tankers.

marclees, How do you think a USN Vs Iranian Navy would play out given todays situations? thanks!
 
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M

marclees

New Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

bd popeye said:
I agree with Finn's assessment. I think the greatest threat to the USN from Iran would be her subs..And of course if a conflict did arise expect the USN CVNs to exit the gulf and operate in the Indian Ocean as Finn has pointed out. If such a scenario did occur the USAF would provide AWACS and Tankers.
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I tend to agree that the greatest threat to the USN would be Iran's Klio subs, and (probably) her cache of sophisticated EM-52 and EM-53 bottom-tethered mines. Apparently these mines can be laid weeks / months before awaiting the USN ships , lying dormant up to 120 metres deep.

Newer versions reportedly can be laid up to 300 metres deep and have a lifespan of 400 days before self destruction. Not sure which versions China sold to Iran - ( Not sure WHY did China have to sell such mines to Iran even in the 90s ?? )

Their rocket-propelled 300-kg warhead is apparently capable of hitting the hull of its target vessel at speeds in excess of 80 meters per second.

These mines are reportedly deactivated by coded acoustic signals to allow the safe passage of friendly vessels, and again activated to prevent the transit of those of an enemy. Sounds neat if they work as advertised !


To further complicate matters , if the USN were to engage Iran , I doubt very much if Russia and China will stand by and do nothing . China has lots of Oil investments in Iran & will need to do something or the CP will lose its 'mandate'.

Putin has reportedly said that an attack on Iran constitutes an attack on Mother Russia. Then there is the added issue that Iran is a SCO member .

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Given's Putin propensity and image as a "tough guy " , I wouldn't downplay his threat . Besides , looking at the state of the Russian economy today , what does he have to lose ? I think he WILL go nuke.

If hostilities began in Iran , I think I'll move to New Zealand . Or Fiji . And wait for Judgement day. After that , I'll join John Connor's Resistant movement . :coffee: I think the war against the machines will be easier . At least humans will finally be UNITED with a common cause , against a common enemy . T1000s, TXs -->watch out .:).
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References :

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Andrew Erickson, Lyle Goldstein and William Murray, "China's Undersea Sentries," Undersea Warfare, Vol 9, No 2 (Winter 2007).
 
Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

marclees said:
I tend to agree that the greatest threat to the USN would be Iran's Klio subs, and (probably) her cache of sophisticated EM-52 and EM-53 bottom-tethered mines. Apparently these mines can be laid weeks / months before awaiting the USN ships , lying dormant up to 120 metres deep.

Newer versions reportedly can be laid up to 300 metres deep and have a lifespan of 400 days before self destruction. Not sure which versions China sold to Iran - ( Not sure WHY did China have to sell such mines to Iran even in the 90s ?? )
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I actually overheard a conversation today between some people who were talking about how their company makes mock traning mines for the DoD so we can assume the USN has some form of traning for the mine threat going on. Mines are an excellent delay/denial weapon but they are only useful so long as there is an active force protecting them.

On the subject of Iran and China, I can see them supporting Iran with intelligence and diplomatic action but not active involvment.

Regardless the geopolitical consequences of military action against Iran would be catastrophic for the United States, and recent events there greatly decrease the possibility of tha that happening anyway.
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I tend to agree that the greatest threat to the USN would be Iran's Klio subs, and (probably) her cache of sophisticated EM-52 and EM-53 bottom-tethered mines. Apparently these mines can be laid weeks / months before awaiting the USN ships , lying dormant up to 120 metres deep.

Newer versions reportedly can be laid up to 300 metres deep and have a lifespan of 400 days before self destruction. Not sure which versions China sold to Iran - ( Not sure WHY did China have to sell such mines to Iran even in the 90s ?? )
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Mines are a threat to the USN in the Gulf. That is why the USN has mine sweepers and CH-53s stationed in Bahrain to counter the mine threat. In the last 15 years or so the USN has really wratched up it's mine warfare capabilities. With more deployments of Mine Countermeasures Ships.

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FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

Captain
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

These mines are reportedly deactivated by coded acoustic signals to allow the safe passage of friendly vessels, and again activated to prevent the transit of those of an enemy. Sounds neat if they work as advertised !
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All an adversary would have to do is to acquire the coded signals, which is very, very easily done in a variety of ways.
 
FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

Captain
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Simply track Iranian ship movements with SSNs, and record any anomalies in the acoustic signatures of the vessels. These can be compiled into a database, where one can use an algorithm to detect unusual patterns in the acoustics.
Else, use intelligence assets to either intercept or steal the acoustic codes.
 
A

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Here is the conumdrum of mine warfare. Mines have adjustable sensitivity to take into account the possibility the enemy force of ships is degaussed. For a mine to be effective it must explode very close aboard the targeted ship. If sensitivity is set low, a degaussed ship may pass right by without triggering the magnetic trigger. Set the sensitivity high enough to sense a degaussed ship, and one that isn't degaussed will detonate the mine at too great a distance to do damage. One could in theory make the mine field denser but there is a practical limit to this as mines are not cheap and limitless in quantity. A nation could have a very few really dense mine fields or many more less densely populated fields.
Btw, if you want to know what a naval conflict between Iran and the USN would look like, simply review Operation Praying Mantis. From the Iranian perspective that was an all out response. They threw everything they had at the US and lost badly. In the 1980's the USN and the Iranian's, mainly the IRG, fought running battles just about every week. There was a huge night engagement with over forty IRG gunboats that attacked a US Army floating base in the Arab Gulf ( or Persian Gulf depending on your orientation ). The US Army had two such bases built out of oil support barges, and armored. The Iranians lost badly, not anticipating the US Army also operates it's own armed patrol craft.
Kilo's are highly over rated, an old and noisy design the USN has had many opportunities to study. Poland had them so you can assume the USN has hands on with them at sea.
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Ambivalent stated;

Btw, if you want to know what a naval conflict between Iran and the USN would look like, simply review Operation Praying Mantis.
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wiki gives an excellent account of Operation Praying Mantis.

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Operation Praying Mantis was an April 18, 1988 attack by U.S. naval forces in retaliation for the Iranian mining of the Persian Gulf and the subsequent damage to an American warship.

On April 14, the guided missile frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts struck a mine while deployed in the Persian Gulf as part of Operation Earnest Will, the 1987-88 convoy missions in which U.S. warships escorted reflagged Kuwaiti oil tankers to protect them from Iranian attacks. The explosion put a 25-foot hole in the Roberts' hull and nearly sank it. The crew saved their ship with no loss of life, and Roberts was towed to Dubai on April 16.

After the mining, U.S. Navy divers recovered other mines in the area. When the serial numbers were found to match those of mines seized along with the Iran Ajr the previous September, U.S. military officials planned a retaliatory operation against Iranian targets in the Persian Gulf.

The battle, the largest for American naval forces since World War II,[1] sank two Iranian warships and three armed speedboats. It also marked the first anti-ship surface-to-surface missile engagement in U.S. Navy history.

The attack by the U.S. helped pressure Iran to agree to a ceasefire with Iraq later that summer, ending the eight-year conflict between the Persian Gulf neighbors

On April 14th 1988 the Americans attacked with several groups of surface warships, plus aircraft from the carrier USS Enterprise (CVN-65), and her ASW/AAW escort USS Truxtun (CGN-35). The action began with coordinated strikes by two surface groups. One group, consisting of the destroyers USS Merrill (DD 976) and USS Lynde McCormick (DDG 8), plus the amphibious transport dock USS Trenton (LPD-14), neutralized the Sassan oil platform. The Iranians on the platform were given the opportunity to abandon it for a tugboat waiting alongside, but instead opened fire on Merrill, whose auto-loading 5-inch, 54-caliber guns quickly destroyed the smaller, platform-mounted Iranian gun with artillery shells. Immediately afterward, U.S. Marines from Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) 2-88 fast-roped onto the Sassan platform, gathered intelligence, and set explosive charges to render it unusable. The other group, which included a guided missile cruiser and two frigates, attacked the Sirri oil platform.

Iran responded by dispatching Boghammar speedboats to attack various targets in the Persian Gulf, including an American-flagged supply ship and a Panamanian-flagged ship. After these attacks, A-6E Intruder aircraft from the VA-95 "Green Lizards" were directed to the speedboats by an American frigate. The two aircraft, piloted by Lieutenant Commander James Engler and Lieutenant Paul Webb, dropped Rockeye cluster bombs on the speedboats, sinking one and damaging several others, which then fled to the Iranian-controlled island of Abu Musa.

Action continued to escalate. Joshan, an Iranian Combattante II Kaman-class fast attack craft, challenged USS Wainwright (CG-28) and Surface Action Group Charlie, firing a Harpoon missile at them.[citation needed] The USS Simpson (FFG-56) responded to the challenge by firing two Standard missiles, while Wainwright followed with one Standard missile.[citation needed] The attacks destroyed the Iranian ship's superstructure but did not immediately sink it, so USS Bagley (FF-1069) fired a Harpoon of its own; the missile did not find the target. The Wainwright of SAG Charlie closed on the Joshan, destroying it with its five-inch gun.

Two Iranian F-4 fighters then approached the Wainwright. One fighter left the area soon after the cruiser placed its 55B Fire Control Radar in search mode. The second fighter made a low-altitude approach towards the warship, which fired two SM-2 missiles at it. The first missile malfunctioned, but the second missile found its mark. The Wainwright was credited with downing the F-4 Phantom.[citation needed]

Fighting continued when the Iranian frigate IS Sahand (F74) departed Bandar Abbas and challenged elements of an American surface group. The frigate was spotted by two VA-95 A-6Es while they were flying surface combat air patrol for USS Joseph Strauss (DDG-16).

Iranian frigate IS Sahand (F74) burning from bows to stern on April 18, 1988 after being attacked.

Sahand fired missiles at the A-6Es, and the Intruders replied with two Harpoons and four laser-guided Skipper bombs. USS Joseph Strauss added a Harpoon. Most, if not all, of the U.S. weapons hit the Iranian ship.

Fires blazing on Sahand's decks eventually reached her munitions magazines, causing an explosion that sank the ship. Despite the loss of Sahand, one of Iran's most modern ships, the Iranian navy continued to fight. Late in the day, a sister ship, IS Sabalan (F73), departed from its berth and fired a surface-to-air missile at several A-6Es from VA-95. Intruder pilot Engler dropped a laser-guided bomb on Sabalan, leaving the ship dead in the water. The Iranian frigate, stern partially submerged, was taken in tow by an Iranian tug. VA-95's aircraft, as ordered, did not continue the attack. Engler was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross by Admiral William J. Crowe, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for these actions against the Sabalan and the Iranian gunboats.
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