Political and Military Analysis on China

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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Of course the regime will still stand you idiot.

If China wouldn't emerge as a mega superpower, you wouldn't be at this forum trolling the Chinese with your anti-China bias.
Idiot?

Who has the bias?

I do not recall kroko using ad homien name calling to advance his arguement.

The fact is, many "regimes" who were powerful and thought they would stand for decades, hundreds of years, or 1,000 years did not...they were wrong.

The Soviets (and most of the world) thought the Cold War would surely continue for another 100 years or more...but they were wrong.

There is no gaurntee, for the US or for China. We have seen change topple regimes that appeared strong, and within 2-3 years, that landscape completely changed.

I beleive with the finanaical situation as it is world-wide, with the geo-politics, etc., etc. that things could change when least expected. I am not saying thet they will, or certainly not that they have to...just saying history of the last 100+ years have shown us that they certainly can.

And I believe that was kroko's whole point. And there is nothing idiotic about that at all...whether it is apt to happen or not.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Idiot?

Who has the bias?

I do not recall kroko using ad homien name calling to advance his arguement.

The fact is, many "regimes" who were powerful and thought they would stand for decades, hundreds of years, or 1,000 years did not...they were wrong.

The Soviets (and most of the world) thought the Cold War would surely continue for another 100 years or more...but they were wrong.

There is no gaurntee, for the US or for China. We have seen change topple regimes that appeared strong, and within 2-3 years, that landscape completely changed.

I beleive with the finanaical situation as it is world-wide, with the geo-politics, etc., etc. that things could change when least expected. I am not saying thet they will, or certainly not that they have to...just saying history of the last 100+ years have shown us that they certainly can.

And I believe that was kroko's whole point. And there is nothing idiotic about that at all...whether it is apt to happen or not.

It's offensive to any semi-intelligent human being to suggest that within the next 15-20 years, China will collapse.

Please take your disingenous Western anti-China propaganda elsewhere.
 

jobjed

Captain
It's offensive to any semi-intelligent human being to suggest that within the next 15-20 years, China will collapse.

Please take your disingenous Western anti-China propaganda elsewhere.

I think Kroko meant that the "regime" will collapse, which basically means the same as "government" except with a whole lot more negative connotations. Of course he's biased against the CCP, his choice to use the word "regime" in place of "government" already proves that. However, I do think you're getting a little bit over-defensive.

It will be detrimental to the stability of the PRC if the CCP collapsed, but in 17 years, the Chinese population will be a lot more educated, and more educated masses demand more freedom/democracy etc. Even if the CCP doesn't collapse, there is a significant chance that they will introduce more progressive policies. As such, I don't deem Kroko's comments to be outside the realm of possibility, the CCP has a slight chance to collapse, but China as a nation will remain for LONG, LONG time.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
we all know the internal issue china currently have, major corruption, land grabing, environment, gap between rich/poor, politicla freedom etc etc. all these contribute to distability, and will depend which direction the government goes to stablized. remember one of the many reasons CCP win the civil war against KMT, is that KMT was corrupt to the bone, and CCP had alot help from the peasants. well now there is alot corruption withing CCP official, plus other issues. not that i'm saying CCP will collapse but just that CCP currently has alot issue to deal with internally.
 

escobar

Brigadier
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For years, China has criticized the surveillance activities of U.S. naval vessels in its 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone. Now China has begun, in however small a way, to do the same thing off Guam and Hawaii. And, somewhat counter-intuitively, this may prove to be in the interests of peace, stability and security right across Indo-Pacific Asia.

The revelation came on June 1, at the maritime security session of the Shangri-La Dialogue, Asia’s leading informal defense gathering.

It is common knowledge that China has long resented and pushed back against the presence of American surveillance ships and aircraft off its coast. China considers this bad for its national interest – after all, the Americans are presumably collecting data on Chinese military activities, among other things. China also presumably sees the ongoing presence as an insult to its national pride, a reminder of a history of humiliation by foreign powers.

Thus it was striking to hear a Chinese military officer reveal in an open discussion at this conference on Saturday that China had “thought of reciprocating” by “sending ships and planes to the US EEZ”. He then went further and announced that China had in fact done so “a few times”, although not on a daily basis (unlike the U.S. presence off China).


This is big news, as it is the first time China has confirmed what the Pentagon claimed last month in a low-key way in its annual report on Chinese military power. Buried on page 39 was the following gem:

“the PLA Navy has begun to conduct military activities within the Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZs) of other nations, without the permission of those coastal states. Of note, the United States has observed over the past year several instances of Chinese naval activities in the EEZs around Guam and Hawaii … While the United States considers the PLA Navy activities in its EEZ to be lawful, the activity undercuts China’s decades-old position that similar foreign military activities in China’s EEZ are unlawful.”

It certainly does. And the Commander of U.S. Pacific Command, Admiral Samuel Locklear, who was present when the Chinese officer made the revelation, has now confirmed to the media that such Chinese operations are occurring.


To be absolutely fair and accurate, the Chinese officer did not say explicitly whether the Chinese ships (and/or aircraft) were actively collecting intelligence, or whether they were just venturing near U.S. territory to make a political point. But it would seem odd that they would forgo the opportunity to conduct surveillance. And he did say “reciprocating”.

Why is this revelation so strategically and diplomatically important? A few reasons. First, it amounts to a sign of a Chinese realization that its interpretation of the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea is not in its long-term interests. That interpretation has been that freedom of navigation does not include the right to conduct surveillance in another country’s EEZ. Most countries, including the United States, consider such surveillance to be a peaceful activity allowed under the convention. (To be clear, all including America agree that peacetime intelligence-gathering within the 12 nautical mile limit of anyone else’s territorial waters is a big no-no.)

As China’s economic and strategic interests, and naval capabilities, extend ever further from its shores, it seems that some within the Chinese security establishment are anticipating future benefit from their own country having the legal right to gather intelligence in other countries’ EEZs. After all, if they had continued their old policy, perhaps a third of the world’s maritime space would have been barred to their operational activity, at least in legal terms.

But for now, if China is indeed conducting the occasional surveillance foray in America’s EEZ, then it is technically in breach of its own interpretation of sea law.

Moreover, if China is admitting that it is starting to compete with America at its own game, then this could be read as an acknowledgement that the U.S. Navy is not going to be persuaded to give up its surveillance in East Asian waters. Incidents like the harassment of the USNS Impeccable in 2009 were generally believed to have been part of a campaign to push the Americans back. It is fair to speculate that China now recognizes that that campaign has failed and that it needs to try a new tack.

This may well explain why China seems less intent than a few years ago on pursuing risky encounters with American ships and planes – incidents that could conceivably have escalated to confrontation, even conflict. In accepting Chinese visits to its own EEZ, the United States is showing that this kind of “reciprocity” is normal, and far preferable to a heightened risk of war.

All of this may also help explain why maritime risk-reduction talks and military-military dialogues between China and the United States seem to be making progress. If China really is beginning to experiment with voyages by its spy-ships to America’s Pacific islands, perhaps that will turn out to be good news for everyone.
 

advill

Junior Member
Mistrust by the 2 parties concerned is expected and envisaged to continue. Additionally, because of growing extensive maritime patrols by the PLA-N in the East and South-China Seas, claimant countries involved in the disputes are wary about China's determined territorial ambitions. Mistrust continues to be embedded in the countries concerned. Great pity, as many expected a "peaceful rise" by the up and coming Super Power. What's next will be unravelled in the near future. As is, it doesn't bode well for the Asia-Pacific Region.


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Equation

Lieutenant General
Mistrust by the 2 parties concerned is expected and envisaged to continue. Additionally, because of growing extensive maritime patrols by the PLA-N in the East and South-China Seas, claimant countries involved in the disputes are wary about China's determined territorial ambitions. Mistrust continues to be embedded in the countries concerned. Great pity, as many expected a "peaceful rise" by the up and coming Super Power. What's next will be unravelled in the near future. As is, it doesn't bode well for the Asia-Pacific Region.

Other "claimant countries" are also having territorial dispute with each other, it's not just with China alone.
 

advill

Junior Member
Correct. Best way to settle the disputes by all parties concerned is to bring them to the International Court of Justice. UNCLOS guidelines should help in determining which country owns what territorial waters/islands/reefs etc.



Other "claimant countries" are also having territorial dispute with each other, it's not just with China alone.
 

mr.bean

Junior Member
Mistrust by the 2 parties concerned is expected and envisaged to continue. Additionally, because of growing extensive maritime patrols by the PLA-N in the East and South-China Seas, claimant countries involved in the disputes are wary about China's determined territorial ambitions. Mistrust continues to be embedded in the countries concerned. Great pity, as many expected a "peaceful rise" by the up and coming Super Power. What's next will be unravelled in the near future. As is, it doesn't bode well for the Asia-Pacific Region.

the asia pacific region will be just fine, mistrust is normal when the power equation changes. every one will adapt accordingly. the Chinese say they are a force for peace, there is no reason to doubt that. they can say all they want about china's so called ''assertiveness'' but the FACT is they are rising to the top by peaceful means. according to OECD the Chinese economy will be larger than the US economy in roughly one decade from now and they did by peaceful means. they haven't invaded a foreign country thousands of miles away nor have they regime changed any nation recently. they haven't colonized the African continent like our euro friends have in recent history, THEY BUY THEIR RESOURCES at market prices. so cut them Chinese commies some slack my friend.
 

escobar

Brigadier
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Recently, a Beijing-based defense attaché from a NATO country was reported saying, “Our assessment is they [the People’s Liberation Army] are nowhere near as effective as they think they are” (Foreign Policy, May/June 2013). Though the foreign officer did not provide further details, contrary to this attaché’s assertion, a large body of evidence in the official domestic Chinese military and Communist Party media suggests People’s Liberation Army (PLA) officers—ranging from the senior leadership to operational and tactical commanders as well as staff officers—do not judge the Chinese military to be anywhere near as effective as many foreigners do.

When speaking to foreigners, senior PLA leaders often say something like what Minister of Defense Liang Guanglie told U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates in January 2011, “The gap between us and that of advanced countries is at least two to three decades” [1]. The senior leadership understands the PLA has made progress in many areas over the last 15 years, especially in some important, well-publicized capabilities, but internally they emphasize the need to educate and train PLA personnel to execute a new doctrine that they have never tested in combat.

Acknowledging the force’s shortfalls and focusing how to overcome these deficiencies reflect a professional approach to the task of military modernization. It also is the basis for the multi-decade timeline extending out to 2049 that the PLA has set for itself to complete the modernization process. At its most basic level, the recognition of shortcomings is consistent with Sun Tzu’s guidance to “Know the enemy and know yourself.”

The PLA Constantly Evaluates Its Capabilities and Shortfalls


Critical analysis of problems in PLA personnel quality, organization, training and logistics can be found in the writings and quotes from operational commanders and staff officers responsible for unit readiness published in Chinese military newspapers and journals. They are almost always in Chinese, directed at the PLA itself or Communist Party members. These evaluations are often buried in longer articles and usually follow the pattern of recognizing improvements that have been made, identifying shortcomings and recommending actions to overcome these problems. Many articles contain descriptions of units learning basic lessons that all militaries confront in training. Many articles, however, describe systemic problems that apply to more than just the individual unit involved and are published as lessons for others in the PLA. This type of analysis is not a new practice and can be traced back through decades of military reporting.

Significant problem areas are identified for all the services. The following sections provide a few examples across three categories from Chinese reports published since 2010. Often reports are couched in terms of “some units,” so it is difficult to assess exactly how widespread the problems are. The difficulties, however, must be common enough throughout the force to merit such public attention.

Personnel Quality


The goal of improving the quality of officers, noncommissioned officers, and conscripts has been at the top of the PLA agenda for many years, going back to Jiang Zemin’s guidance in the 1990s: “Though we’re unable to develop all high-technology weapons and equipment within a short period of time, we must train qualified personnel first, for we would rather let our qualified personnel wait for equipment than the other way round” (“Chinese Military Logistics: The GAD System Part II,” China Brief, October 14, 2004). Despite this emphasis, the PLA leadership still sees major shortcomings in the performance of many commanders, staff officers and troops in all services. A few examples of this type of evaluation include the following:

Then-President Hu Jintao said “The military is facing prominent difficulties in recruiting soldiers, retaining professionals…Therefore, we must find the solution to these problems by adjusting and reforming related policies and institutions” (Outlook, March 28, 2011);
A PLA Daily staff commentator article stated “We must be aware that the overall level of talented personnel in our army is not compatible with the requirements of fulfilling the historic mission in the new century, and the quality of information technology personnel is not compatible with the requirements for the development of combat effectiveness” (China Military Online, April 19, 2011) [2];
Another PLA Daily article focused on the Navy noted “It must be understood that the incompatibility between the requirements to build naval personnel and to build an informatized navy and win informatized maritime wars remains a relatively obvious contradiction” (China Military Online, May 11, 2011);
Writing about the state of the PLA’s joint operations capabilities, Major General Chen Pinghua, political commissar of the 14th Group Army, said, “currently there is still a gap between the Party committee’s [unit commander, political commissar, and their deputies] tactical command capability and the requirements to win an informatized warfare in some troop units” (China Military Online, December 22, 2011 in Chinese and December 23 in English).

Old-Style Thinking

Closely related to the quality of personnel is the need for more innovation in thought and action. Much of the problem traces back to a reluctance to change old practices. Some units must be encouraged to “change their thinking” to actually use the new weapons and equipment issued them. Even recently there have been reports of soldiers who are afraid of using new equipment for fear of breaking or losing it, or because they have not been properly trained in its operation and maintenance (this situation is often referred to as “Lord Ye’s love of dragons,” Yègōng hàolóng).

A PLA Daily staff commentator article observed: “Some units have long been mired in the conventional mentality…These units handle issues arbitrarily and in accordance with their personal preferences, and they replace laws and regulations with governance, power, order and personal feelings…a small number of units still exhibit the phenomena of disobeying laws, orders and regulations” (China Military Online, June 7 and 8, 2010);
A year later another staff commentator article repeated, “The problem at present is that the phenomenon of failing to obey regulations and/or failing to enforce laws or rules rigidly still exists in some units in one form or another. Some people pay more attention to the rules of men than to the rule of law” (China Military Online, March 21, 2011);
Nanjing Military Region commander and political commissar Cai Yingting and Zheng Weiping told party leaders, “At present, due to the long peaceful environment, a small number of military personnel relax readiness in their thinking and mentality…Our forces are short of experience in fighting actual operations under informatized conditions, and there still exists a gap between their military capability and the requirement of winning in war” (Qiushi, March 1).

Training

Currently, the PLA is experimenting with its training system to implement a new doctrine that incorporates the new and old equipment in the force. Commanders and staff officers recognize problems in both the content and form of training. They seek to conduct realistic training so that their units will “train as you fight and fight as you train” (China Military Online, May 4, 2012). Some personnel, however, take “shortcuts,” like using unauthorized civilian radios or cell phones, which undermine realism and could jeopardize actual operations. Units are trying to find the best way to standardize, monitor and evaluate training and eliminate the problem of “fakery” in order to get good results.

Major General Xu Jingnian, commander of the 20th Group Army (a corps-level organization) said “The basic campaign corps face many problems carrying out joint training under current conditions” (China Military Online, January 21, 2010);
Major General Chen Zhaohai, director of the General Staff Department Military Training and Arms Department (now the Military Training Department) assessed: “Currently, the PLA’s military training under informatized conditions is still at the initial phase” (Xinhua, January 29, 2010);
A PLA Daily staff commentator summarized, “…military training in our army is still generally mechanized. Traditional ideas and habitual practices have not been drastically changed…The level of training support is not sufficient for training under informatized conditions” (China Military Online, March 31, 2011);
Major General Zhou Xiaozhou, commander of the 14th Group Army, stated “Some units do not pay attention to training quality and efficiency, waste valuable resources, which affect the scientific upgrading of unit combat effectiveness” (China Military Online, July 24, 2011);
After acknowledging progress in military modernization, Lieutenant General Li Shaojun, deputy commander of the Beijing Military Region, reported to the National People’s Congress, “there is a gap between the overall combat effectiveness of the PLA and the requirements of fulfilling new historical missions” (China Military Online, March 13, 2012);
Rear Admiral Qiu Yanpeng, deputy commander of the East Sea Fleet, said, “No matter whether it is in comparison to the navies of other world powers or looking at the needs of the construction and development of the Chinese Navy, there is considerable room for improvement in terms of the strength and results of our distant sea training” (Xinhua, December 11, 2012).

The “Two Incompatibles”


Most of the examples above come from senior Army personnel in positions of operational authority and responsibility. Similar assessments are found in the Navy, Air Force, and Second Artillery newspapers. In addition to the areas mentioned above, organizational shortcomings have been a common theme over the past 15 years as the PLA has become smaller, but more technologically advanced. Operational and tactical headquarters have discovered they are not structured adequately to command and control joint and combined arms operations and have undergone significant structural and equipment changes. Likewise, the PLA leadership understands the requirement for its logistics system to keep pace with the changes in its combat systems. The problem of logistics support is complicated by the existence of multiple types of similar equipment in the force. For example, the Army has at least five types of main battle tanks (each with variants) and 12 types of helicopters in its inventory. Each different type of equipment brings with it different maintenance and supply requirements, increasing the complexity of the logistics effort.

The challenges the PLA faces in its modernization program have been clear to the senior leadership for many years. While they simplify their assessment for foreigners by speaking of a 20 to 30 year gap in capabilities, for their own internal consumption they speak of the “main contradiction” (zhuyao maodun) or the “two incompatibles” (liangge buxiang shiying). This evaluation of PLA (and People’s Armed Police) capabilities has been attributed to Hu Jintao and was first published on January 1, 2006 in a PLA Daily editorial. Though it has been translated in many ways, the statement usually follows these lines:

“The main contradiction in our army building is that the level of our modernization is incompatible with the demands of winning a local war under informatized conditions, and our military capabilities are incompatible with the demands of carrying out the army's historic missions in the new century and new stage.”

Nearly all senior PLA leaders have repeated the “two incompatibles” assessment in speeches or writing. It continues into the Xi Jinping era, found as recently as April 4 and 16, 2013 in PLA Daily. Like other assessments, it is usually buried deep in a Chinese-language article after acknowledging progress in some area has been made. Its purpose is to motivate the troops to continue the difficult task of military modernization. It also may be used within the government bureaucracy to justify continued increases to the defense budget. An accompanying explanation often bears these points out:

“After the CCP's 16th Party Congress, China's defense power has been substantially increased. Military Transformation with Chinese Characteristics has attained significant achievement, with revolutions in military affairs, modernization and regularization all working together in concept to strengthen the military on all fronts. At the same time, preparations for military conflict continue apace, with clear advancements in the ability of our nation's military to carry out the New Historical Missions. But we must see, although the ‘two incompatibles’ are an important contradiction affecting our military's construction, there remains a major disparity between not only our military's level of modernization and the needs of our national security, but with between ourselves and cutting edge military forces around the world. Speeding up the modernization of National Defense and the military and redoubling efforts to resolve the major contradiction while increasing our across-the-board ability to carry out missions and implementing the party's directive to strengthen the military has decisive significance” (PLA Daily, April 16).

In short, for the senior Chinese leadership, the “Two Incompatibles” are the measure of PLA modernization and a framework for evaluating China’s military capabilities. They understand that although the PLA has made great progress and looks much different from 15 years ago, there remains much work to be done to achieve across-the-board advanced military status. This self-awareness on the part of the PLA leadership suggests that many senior military officials may not be as “hawkish” as they are frequently portrayed. It is possible that their understanding of the many shortcomings in the PLA may embolden them to urge caution in the use of force when advising the senior Communist Party leadership in private. When ordered by the party, however, they will seek to accomplish the missions using all the forces and capabilities at their disposal. Moreover, the professionalism signaled in these self-assessments suggests the PLA may employ these capabilities in ways we do not expect. Discipline and necessity can be the parents of invention.

Some readers may be skeptical and assume this evaluation is part of a grand strategic deception plan (Sun Tzu said, “All warfare is based on deception”), but nearly all instances of the “Two Incompatibles” and most functional assessments are found in newspapers and journals directed at a Chinese audience. They have not been included in any of the externally-oriented defense white papers. More importantly, such evaluations reveal the practical problems a military will encounter as it moves from the book-learning phase to live training in the field. It is more likely that the “two incompatibles” assessment is related to Sun Tzu’s instruction to “Know the enemy and know yourself.” Successful execution of a deception plan or operations order is unlikely without accurate knowledge of both the enemy and your own capabilities…and weaknesses.
 
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