09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

Blitzo

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Is there any way of knowing which buildings are involved in building the hull structure of submarines at various sub shipyards around the world? So I'm not taking just about the final assembly building but about all the buildings in the production chain, from the one turning the metal sheets into custom pieces from which sub modules will later get assembled.
Which buildings are in that chain at two us shipyards, the Russian one, the British one and at two Chinese production lines, including both the new one but also the old production line?

At Newport news I know that they have a pressurised hull fabrication building as well as a separate supplementary module outfitting facility and the final module outfitting facility where the final submarine is assembled. However to my knowledge the buildings in each case are all a fraction of the BHSIC equivalents, and it seems like even the MOF building is only running at half its full capacity.

During the cold war Newport news I believe at a point they were working on 4 LA SSNs at a time in the MOF whereas currently they're doing 2 at a time as a peak.
 

AndrewS

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India has same cost advantage, they have also clear plans for their own nuke sub fleet, and soon they have two more SSGN subs not just lone Arihant. That means Chinese have a lot more enemies with submarine fleets than United States, so 095-class is probably going to have it work cut out for it.

Whilst labour in India is cheaper than in China, India doesn't have a competitive civilian shipbuilding industry to leverage off, nor any scale.
So the lack of skilled manpower and infrastructure make Indian shipbuilding (civilian and military) comparatively expensive.
Plus India only just started its SSN programme, which is targeting 2034 for the first submarine to be commissioned.

And aren't all the Arihant's ballistic missile submarines, rather than SSGNs?
 

Totoro

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At Newport news I know that they have a pressurised hull fabrication building as well as a separate supplementary module outfitting facility and the final module outfitting facility where the final submarine is assembled. However to my knowledge the buildings in each case are all a fraction of the BHSIC equivalents, and it seems like even the MOF building is only running at half its full capacity.

During the cold war Newport news I believe at a point they were working on 4 LA SSNs at a time in the MOF whereas currently they're doing 2 at a time as a peak.
Do you perhaps know which building those are, specifically? Could you point them out on this image? Strangely, this link says MOF is what I always though the final assembly building was.
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Electric Boat was even more impressive than Newport news back in the day. From March to October 1981 they launched 5 new LA class subs. Two of them being laid down in 1978 and three in 1979. With two more boats being laid down during 1980 (and launched in 1982).

Which buildings are the relevant part of the BHSIC? there's so many, I am not sure I am looking at the right ones...
 

Blitzo

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The MOF building is basically Newport news's final assembly building

The SMOF is adjacent to it. It is a new buulding if you go back a few years on GE you will see it literally get built. If you do an image search of Newport news SMOF that will also be useful to locate and ID it.

I haven't been able to ID the pressurised hull facility at newport, as I've only seen pictures of its interior and none outside. However based on how it looks inside or isn't a very large building.

During the week I'm living at a place without internet and my data is limited so I won't be able to download and upload the photo with annotations.


As for the relevant buildings at BHSIC, I annotated them in my piece for the diplomat. I think it was one of the first pictures in the article.
 

Totoro

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I am having real trouble deciphering which building is part of the hull production process. And even if I knew that, who is to say that some of the subsystems aren't also partially assembled on site, in a special hall?

When it comes to Newport news, final assembly hall is some 11,900 m2. I disregarded the supplementary building as it was not present back in 1980s, so even without it the pace of 2 subs in a year was achieved. The rest of the buildings marked blue are what seems to me as likely to be part of the sub building process. Their combined area is 24,000 m2. Of course, perhaps not all indeed are part of the sub building. Or perhaps some other, more distant, building is part of it.

Old Huludao facilty is also hard to gauge for me. The one building we know was part of the process is in itself quite large. Almost 39,000 m2. But A) was the entire building dedicated for subs? And B) are there other buildings out there which were part of the process? PErhaps those marked in orange in the image? They have combined area of 40,000 m2. I'd say it's unlikely they're part of the process but is there a way to confirm it?

The new Huludao facility is not easy either. It doesn't seem complete. Final assembly is large, at over 39,000 m2. The possible part assembly building is almost as big at close to 35,000 m2.

but what about other buildings? Those marked in orange have combined area of 26,000 m2. And then there are those which seem to be under construction. When finished they may add another 20 to 30 thousand m2. How to tell if they're part of the building process?

Without that info, it's very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

Newport News SEEMS to have up to 44,000 m2 of construction area.
Old Bohai facility seems to have up to 39,000 m2 of area. Or possibly double that number, though that's very doubtful.
New Bohai facility seems to have at least 74,000 m2 of area, with possibly/probably 25-55 thousand m2 more, when it's fully finished.

Newport News did manage to do those 2 subs per year with its area. Old Bohai, if ALL 39,000 m2 was used for subs, did 6-7 SSNs and around 5 SSBNs since the first launch in 2002. SSBNs were larger than SSNs but then again, LA class subs were larger than 093. So something like 11-12 subs in 16 years for Bohai. They may have been slower due to less experience, slower due to less PLAN requirement or the facility perhaps wasn't all used for subs.

New Bohai facility, even if just 80 to 90 thousand m2 area is assumed, is basically twice the size of Newport News. Would that mean that up to 4 SSNs per year would be achievable, if not SSBNs are accounted for?

I am very aware all this is so far from a scientific method of deduction that it's mostly a worthless brain exercise. Still, one wonders. Though, if actual parity in production capacity is seeked, then the new facility alone won't be enough for China, as US Electric Boat yard is easily twice the capacity of Newport News. so perhaps with old Bohai and New Bohai facility combined something close to parity in capacity could be achieved. But, as far as I've on this forum, the old facility is going to be repurposed for commercial shipbuilding.

If it comes to a new cold war arms race and if USN gets a budget to do it, two US facilites could easily do 8+ submarines (SSN and SSBN) per year.
 

hkbc

Junior Member
Without that info, it's very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

I don't think you could even with additional info just by looking at area of a building, Chinese subs are double hulled, American ones aren't, they simply wouldn't be constructed in the same manner so you are never comparing apples with apples
 

AndrewS

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I am having real trouble deciphering which building is part of the hull production process. And even if I knew that, who is to say that some of the subsystems aren't also partially assembled on site, in a special hall?

When it comes to Newport news, final assembly hall is some 11,900 m2. I disregarded the supplementary building as it was not present back in 1980s, so even without it the pace of 2 subs in a year was achieved. The rest of the buildings marked blue are what seems to me as likely to be part of the sub building process. Their combined area is 24,000 m2. Of course, perhaps not all indeed are part of the sub building. Or perhaps some other, more distant, building is part of it.

Old Huludao facilty is also hard to gauge for me. The one building we know was part of the process is in itself quite large. Almost 39,000 m2. But A) was the entire building dedicated for subs? And B) are there other buildings out there which were part of the process? PErhaps those marked in orange in the image? They have combined area of 40,000 m2. I'd say it's unlikely they're part of the process but is there a way to confirm it?

The new Huludao facility is not easy either. It doesn't seem complete. Final assembly is large, at over 39,000 m2. The possible part assembly building is almost as big at close to 35,000 m2.

but what about other buildings? Those marked in orange have combined area of 26,000 m2. And then there are those which seem to be under construction. When finished they may add another 20 to 30 thousand m2. How to tell if they're part of the building process?

Without that info, it's very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

Newport News SEEMS to have up to 44,000 m2 of construction area.
Old Bohai facility seems to have up to 39,000 m2 of area. Or possibly double that number, though that's very doubtful.
New Bohai facility seems to have at least 74,000 m2 of area, with possibly/probably 25-55 thousand m2 more, when it's fully finished.

Newport News did manage to do those 2 subs per year with its area. Old Bohai, if ALL 39,000 m2 was used for subs, did 6-7 SSNs and around 5 SSBNs since the first launch in 2002. SSBNs were larger than SSNs but then again, LA class subs were larger than 093. So something like 11-12 subs in 16 years for Bohai. They may have been slower due to less experience, slower due to less PLAN requirement or the facility perhaps wasn't all used for subs.

New Bohai facility, even if just 80 to 90 thousand m2 area is assumed, is basically twice the size of Newport News. Would that mean that up to 4 SSNs per year would be achievable, if not SSBNs are accounted for?

I am very aware all this is so far from a scientific method of deduction that it's mostly a worthless brain exercise. Still, one wonders. Though, if actual parity in production capacity is seeked, then the new facility alone won't be enough for China, as US Electric Boat yard is easily twice the capacity of Newport News. so perhaps with old Bohai and New Bohai facility combined something close to parity in capacity could be achieved. But, as far as I've on this forum, the old facility is going to be repurposed for commercial shipbuilding.

If it comes to a new cold war arms race and if USN gets a budget to do it, two US facilites could easily do 8+ submarines (SSN and SSBN) per year.

2 points to add

We can see that Bohai was previously only building a few variants of each Type-93 design to test, so they weren't going at full capacity.

On the US side, if they wanted to start producing 8 submarines per year, the constraint is trained manpower and the supplier base, rather than the building space.

But then China could expand production as well to match in an arms race.
 

Blitzo

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I am having real trouble deciphering which building is part of the hull production process. And even if I knew that, who is to say that some of the subsystems aren't also partially assembled on site, in a special hall?

When it comes to Newport news, final assembly hall is some 11,900 m2. I disregarded the supplementary building as it was not present back in 1980s, so even without it the pace of 2 subs in a year was achieved. The rest of the buildings marked blue are what seems to me as likely to be part of the sub building process. Their combined area is 24,000 m2. Of course, perhaps not all indeed are part of the sub building. Or perhaps some other, more distant, building is part of it.

Old Huludao facilty is also hard to gauge for me. The one building we know was part of the process is in itself quite large. Almost 39,000 m2. But A) was the entire building dedicated for subs? And B) are there other buildings out there which were part of the process? PErhaps those marked in orange in the image? They have combined area of 40,000 m2. I'd say it's unlikely they're part of the process but is there a way to confirm it?

The new Huludao facility is not easy either. It doesn't seem complete. Final assembly is large, at over 39,000 m2. The possible part assembly building is almost as big at close to 35,000 m2.

but what about other buildings? Those marked in orange have combined area of 26,000 m2. And then there are those which seem to be under construction. When finished they may add another 20 to 30 thousand m2. How to tell if they're part of the building process?

Without that info, it's very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

Newport News SEEMS to have up to 44,000 m2 of construction area.
Old Bohai facility seems to have up to 39,000 m2 of area. Or possibly double that number, though that's very doubtful.
New Bohai facility seems to have at least 74,000 m2 of area, with possibly/probably 25-55 thousand m2 more, when it's fully finished.

Newport News did manage to do those 2 subs per year with its area. Old Bohai, if ALL 39,000 m2 was used for subs, did 6-7 SSNs and around 5 SSBNs since the first launch in 2002. SSBNs were larger than SSNs but then again, LA class subs were larger than 093. So something like 11-12 subs in 16 years for Bohai. They may have been slower due to less experience, slower due to less PLAN requirement or the facility perhaps wasn't all used for subs.

New Bohai facility, even if just 80 to 90 thousand m2 area is assumed, is basically twice the size of Newport News. Would that mean that up to 4 SSNs per year would be achievable, if not SSBNs are accounted for?

I am very aware all this is so far from a scientific method of deduction that it's mostly a worthless brain exercise. Still, one wonders. Though, if actual parity in production capacity is seeked, then the new facility alone won't be enough for China, as US Electric Boat yard is easily twice the capacity of Newport News. so perhaps with old Bohai and New Bohai facility combined something close to parity in capacity could be achieved. But, as far as I've on this forum, the old facility is going to be repurposed for commercial shipbuilding.

If it comes to a new cold war arms race and if USN gets a budget to do it, two US facilites could easily do 8+ submarines (SSN and SSBN) per year.

It's very difficult to compare area between the yards for total submarine related activities. For one, we don't know which buildings are relevant and which are not so we don't have any kind of accurate total for each yard.
Also, different construction methods in different yards can make different buildings more or less important for the overall pace of construction for one yard vs another. For example, the new BHSIC facility has been said to have a new dedicated building for painting submarines, which to my knowledge none of the other yards has.

I do think one useful indirect measure for each yard is the area of the final assembly building equivalent of each.
Bohai's new facility of course has it as 288m x 135m. Newport News' MOF building as the equivalent is about 1/3rd of the size, around 130m x 91m. I can't really tell how big Electric Boat's is, because the main building on the water is further divided into a few separate sections and I'm not sure if all of them are the equivalent of the assembly hall.
Barrow in Furness is of course easy to identify at about 270m x 65m but given the RN's relatively small and slow nuclear submarine orders the facility is probably not very useful as a metric for extrapolating full production rate capacity.
Similar goes for Sevmash.


By the way the new image host you're using is a bit weird. It doesn't work really well on mobile.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
Whilst labour in India is cheaper than in China, India doesn't have a competitive civilian shipbuilding industry to leverage off, nor any scale.
So the lack of skilled manpower and infrastructure make Indian shipbuilding (civilian and military) comparatively expensive.
Plus India only just started its SSN programme, which is targeting 2034 for the first submarine to be commissioned.

And aren't all the Arihant's ballistic missile submarines, rather than SSGNs?

Arihant project started as SSN design but then Indian's wanted second strike capability so they added missiles compartment what took time. If they had gone with SSN like originally planned i'd wager Indian Navy would already have few attack submarines on their fleet by now.
 

Bhurki

Junior Member
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Arihant project started as SSN design but then Indian's wanted second strike capability so they added missiles compartment what took time. If they had gone with SSN like originally planned i'd wager Indian Navy would already have few attack submarines on their fleet by now.
Attack submarines require nuclear reactors more powerful than Indian tech(own and borrowed) can provide for now.
The admiral of IN himself approved of this fact. Also its projected that it'll take atleast a decade from now before India fields its first indigenous SSN
 
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