09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[taxiya]

One secondary source on the French and Chinese submarines using Turboelectric drive is Tom Clancy's book Submarine, which also has a list of primary sources listed too.

Now I just googled "Tom Clancy" and got this

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I must ask you, are you kidding me? I am quite serious.

He is a fictional novelist, never served in military, doesn't have an engineering education.

 

[montyp165]

Now I just googled "Tom Clancy" and got this

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I must ask you, are you kidding me? I am quite serious.

He is a fictional novelist, never served in military, doesn't have an engineering education.

He's also written nonfiction material (of which Submarine is one of), with support from military analysts, of which for Submarine was John Gresham.

 

[FORBIN]

You don' t need a source from China, yet almost nothing or understandable, for others countries never i have need local sources ofc ! can be better but no neccessary.

 

[FORBIN]

Does China have an effective sea-based nuclear deterrent ?

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[Hendrik_2000]

Does China have an effective sea-based nuclear deterrent ?

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As soon as I see National interest I stop reading it because National Interest article is of questionable accuracy and clouded by anti China ideology.

Any article about chinese submarine always refer to ONI chart which again is of questionable accuracy since they were publish 2 or 3years before type 93 was even launched

 

[FORBIN]

3 years after 093 is in service the report ! and don't be too in ideology :=)

 

[nemo]

Any article about chinese submarine always refer to ONI chart which again is of questionable accuracy since they were publish 2 or 3years before type 93 was even launched

The may be something to that ONI chart. I used to discount that chart as well, but subsequent information caused me to rethink that.

You may have heard this before, but China developed 2nd generation vibration isolation raft around 2008-2009 and 3rd generation raft around 2012, with capacity of 50 tonne and several hundred tonne respectively. And development of high pressure flexible pipe coupling is around the same time frame. This means 093 and 094, at least the early hulls, would not have the rafts for much of the machinery. This means much higher noise. -- hence there are basis to the ONI chart.

While it is possible to update the couplings, I don't think it's possible to put in the rafts without cutting into the pressure hull -- which is very troublesome to do. The later hulls build after that date may have been modified for the newly developed raft, but at least I haven't heart about it.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

The may be something to that ONI chart. I used to discount that chart as well, but subsequent information caused me to rethink that.

You may have heard this before, but China developed 2nd generation vibration isolation raft around 2008-2009 and 3rd generation raft around 2012, with capacity of 50 tonne and several hundred tonne respectively. And development of high pressure flexible pipe coupling is around the same time frame. This means 093 and 094, at least the early hulls, would not have the rafts for much of the machinery. This means much higher noise. -- hence there are basis to the ONI chart.

While it is possible to update the couplings, I don't think it's possible to put in the rafts without cutting into the pressure hull -- which is very troublesome to do. The later hulls build after that date may have been modified for the newly developed raft, but at least I haven't heart about it.

Why is the raft has to be connected(welded) to the hull. Isn't that defeat the purpose of the raft. Since the raft is a mean to isolate the vibration of the machinery from the hull where it can be transmitted to the sea. So by design the raft is just a steel structure that support all the rotating machinery like pump etc and isolate the part of the system that vibrate.You then reinforce the raft with braces to make it stiff. So instead of isolate individual pump(there are many). Now you only have small number of connection to the hull.

Your timeline is a bit off the raft technology is an old technology maybe you confused it with active vibration cancelling technology

As far as flexible coupling it is old technology. You find it everywhere in industrial plant. Actually flexible is bad word for piping clamp . You add rubber to the clamp.to remove any gap . You want your piping to be as stiff as possible . And yes you can model and simulate piping vibration. And as long as you provide enough clamping to bring the natural frequency of the piping above 2.5 times the frequency of rotating part you are okay. No resonance.

I don't think China is that backward when they built type 93. Type 91 maybe because it is the first time they built nuclear submarine. But considering the industrial base at that time it is huge leap and miracle that it float,sail and doesn't irradiate the crew

 

[FORBIN]

Is is not only a matter of reactor and as Russians, Soviets at this time hull with a bad hydrodynamic especially big hump for Delta as Jin and also vents for evacuating water and on Jin are compared for noise to a Delta III 130 dB ! Xia again more can be 140 very very noisy.

For noise of 093/094 all articles confirm it and in more we have two reputables members moderators also which get a blog an both say also it especialy 093 is disappointing for noise especialy.

So i see some Chinese people ... want her sub' s good/efficient but is not the true fact are the fact and I would say the same thing for a submarine of any other country if it was bad or good.

We are in a free forum and i can quote /post freely according the rules ofc it is normal and if article i post is in the rules and does not say outlandish things i am free to post from National Interest or not, ONI or not or others for especialy Hendrik_2000 and members which like her post...

 

[Quickie]

You may have heard this before, but China developed 2nd generation vibration isolation raft around 2008-2009 and 3rd generation raft around 2012, with capacity of 50 tonne and several hundred tonne respectively. And development of high pressure flexible pipe coupling is around the same time frame. This means 093 and 094, at least the early hulls, would not have the rafts for much of the machinery. This means much higher noise. -- hence there are basis to the ONI chart.

The development of 2nd generation vibration isolation technology implies there was already a First generation such technology. There's then no reason why 093 or 094 wouldn't be using any kind of anti vibration technology whether it's the First Gen or its follow on.