09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[antiterror13]

If there is only 5 total, and we are seeing public photograph that shows 3 at once than something is very wrong, there should be at least 2 on mission at any single time, what its doing all sitting at dock, exposed and all at 1 place?

Is this showing the lack of readiness of PLAN submarines?

If it was the only means to deliver nukes like the UK and France ... yes you are absolutely correct

But China has a lot of IRBM/ICBM (and cruise missiles) to deliver the nukes and also there are a lot of bombers that could deliver nukes. So really there is no "must" for China doing ICBM patrol all the time. I sense that China may wait until 096 and JL-3/A .... and it won't be too long

I believe 094 also regularly doing patrol (not all the time), but not too far from China coast. And I'd bet China wouldn't tell us (and you as well) when they doing SSBN patrol

 

[FORBIN]

If there is only 5 total, and we are seeing public photograph that shows 3 at once than something is very wrong, there should be at least 2 on mission at any single time, what its doing all sitting at dock, exposed and all at 1 place?

Is this showing the lack of readiness of PLAN submarines?

Yes surely 2 on operational cycle patrol or in transit/ready, sure 4 for 5 with last rate of nucl subm production one new/year and new 093A/B i don't think 5 now, the two 093A normaly based to Yalong Bay with the two 093/2nd Submarine base, the two first 093B one in service, on normaly 4 to Shakizou/Jiangezhuang under reserves with the extreme difficulty to have infos...

I don't understand ?

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I want to add that what I said was rimless drive versus conventional screw driven, not pumpjet versus conventional screw.
A pumpjet can be a rimless drive or conventional screw driven.


I was poopooing the idea that 09V would use a rimless drive because as you said, Prof Ma was only talking about IEPS rather than a rimless drive.

I was not expressing doubt that 09V would use a pumpjet, only doubt about it using a rimless pumpjet/drive.





I assume you're talking about me.
I want to make it clear that I never poopooed the idea that it would use pumpjet propulsion. In fact my article did not make any comment about whether 09V would use a pumpjet or not.

What I criticized, was the idea that 09V would use a rimless drive based on Prof Ma's words, which there was no basis for.
There is a big difference between having a pumpjet which is conventional screw driven or rimless -- the difference definitely is not inconsequential either in terms of the consequences for a submarine's performance, or in terms of the discussion that was being had back in July with various articles claiming that the pumpjet would be rimless.

You didn't say it outright but you imply that all those talk about pumpjet is BS by saying in effect "where we get this rumor from ? turn out there is model of pumpjet next to the DC motor"
So that is why the rumor said it is pump jet

 

[jobjed]

You didn't say it outright but you imply that all those talk about pumpjet is BS by saying in effect "where we get this rumor from ? turn out there is model of pumpjet next to the DC motor"

Different people have different levels of sensitivity, I guess. I certainly did not get the impression Bltizo implied rim-driven pumpjet was BS. He's simply making sure no one gets the false impression that 09V rim-driven pumpjet was confirmed by Adm. Ma.

IEPS on 09V was confirmed. Not rim-driven pumpjet.

So that is why the rumor said it is pump jet

No, the reason the rumour mentioned rim-driven pumpjet was because Skywatcher authored an article on his blog that got modified without his permission to say that Adm. Ma was talking about a pumpjet as opposed to the thing that he was actually talking about, which was the 3rd generation IEPS. Then a bunch of Western media outlets jumped on the mistaken "rim-driven pumpjet" bandwagon and claimed that 09V was using rim-driven pumpjets when Adm. Ma was actually saying 09V is going to use IEPS. He never even glanced in the direction of the pumpjet info-board during his interview with CCTV.

We know China is conducting research into rim-driven pumpjets because in the blurry background of the interview, we saw an information board depicting rim-driven pumpjet. But that's it. That is all we know of Chinese rim-driven pumpjet research. We don't know whether they're going to use it for 09V/VI or even surface ships. We don't know how far along they are with their research. We don't know if they're ever going to use it at all or if they'll decide a conventional propeller is better.

There is an acute obsession with rim-driven pumpjet on this forum all stemming from one erroneous article. The PLAN is conducting research into dozens of different technologies, possibly hundreds more that we don't know about. Why is everyone so obsessed with rim-driven pumpjet technology in particular? It's literally just ONE technology of dozens - possibly hundreds - of technologies that the PLAN is researching. This disproportionate focus on that single technology is completely bizarre. I suggest we start viewing rim-driven pumpjet as what it is: not some magical strategic development but one of many, MANY different projects that the PLAN is undertaking. It is no more important than the others and is simply a small part of the overall development and modernisation of the PLAN.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Different people have different levels of sensitivity, I guess. I certainly did not get the impression Bltizo implied rim-driven pumpjet was BS. He's simply making sure no one gets the false impression that 09V rim-driven pumpjet was confirmed by Adm. Ma.

IEPS on 09V was confirmed. Not rim-driven pumpjet.



No, the reason the rumour mentioned rim-driven pumpjet was because Skywatcher authored an article on his blog that got modified without his permission to say that Adm. Ma was talking about a pumpjet as opposed to the thing that he was actually talking about, which was the 3rd generation IEPS. Then a bunch of Western media outlets jumped on the mistaken "rim-driven pumpjet" bandwagon and claimed that 09V was using rim-driven pumpjets when Adm. Ma was actually saying 09V is going to use IEPS. He never even glanced in the direction of the pumpjet info-board during his interview with CCTV.

We know China is conducting research into rim-driven pumpjets because in the blurry background of the interview, we saw an information board depicting rim-driven pumpjet. But that's it. That is all we know of Chinese rim-driven pumpjet research. We don't know whether they're going to use it for 09V/VI or even surface ships. We don't know how far along they are with their research. We don't know if they're ever going to use it at all or if they'll decide a conventional propeller is better.

There is an acute obsession with rim-driven pumpjet on this forum all stemming from one erroneous article. The PLAN is conducting research into dozens of different technologies, possibly hundreds more that we don't know about. Why is everyone so obsessed with rim-driven pumpjet technology in particular? It's literally just ONE technology of dozens - possibly hundreds - of technologies that the PLAN is researching. This disproportionate focus on that single technology is completely bizarre. I suggest we start viewing rim-driven pumpjet as what it is: not some magical strategic development but one of many, MANY different projects that the PLAN is undertaking. It is no more important than the others and is simply a small part of the overall development and modernisation of the PLAN.

Let get the record straight we have discussion about the future of China submarine based on Dr Ma interview .
Some of us suggest that it will be advanced submarine featuring IEPS and maybe even rim driven propeller and or pump jet technology

But you exclude this completely by saying Dr Ma only talk about IEPS and nothing else . So in another word water jet technology with rim driven propeller is out of the picture
Then blitzo come with an article implying that all those talk about rim riven is pure speculation.

Now you and blitzo backtrack from this position I don't have problem with that
But my advice is "don't count the chicken before it hatch"
We don't know because China is not transparent when it come to technology

 

[jobjed]

But you exclude this completely by saying Dr Ma only talk about IEPS and nothing else . So in another word water jet technology with rim driven propeller is out of the picture

Adm. Ma DID only talk about IEPS and nothing else. Go watch

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yourself, he talked ONLY about IEPS and nothing else.

Rim-driven pumpjet is a possibility and nothing more. IEPS is a certainty.

Now you and blitzo backtrack from this position I don't have problem with that

Backtrack from what?!

What did I say and, more importantly, WHEN did I say it? ALL my comments on this forum are still here; quote me when I said anything close to "water jet technology with rim driven propeller is out of the picture". Quote me.

We don't know because China is not transparent when it come to technology

Exactly, so let's not get ahead of ourselves by labelling anyone who simply questions the certainty of 09V's employment of rim-driven pumpjets as "naysayers", "poo-pooers", "backtrackers" or "trolls". All we know is China is researching it. They might employ it on 09V but no one is sure.

So when someone comes in and says "hey, I don't think there's any confirmation of a rim-driven pumpjet on 09V", that is a 100% accurate statement. There is, indeed, no confirmation. He's not a troll or a naysayer or a racist, he's simply correct.

On the other hand, if someone says "hey, I think there's no chance of rim-driven pumpjet on 09V", then he's very obviously talking out of his arse because there's way he can be sure. But NO ONE is actually saying that. Bltizo never said that.

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his article; scan every word. He never said there was "no chance" of rim-driven pumpjet on 09V. In fact, his exact words are: "However, there is a significant difference between suggesting that China had conducted research into a rimdrive, and claiming that Prof Ma had said China’s next generation nuclear submarine will be fielding a rimdrive." That is literally all he said about the rim-driven pumpjet. He made no comment on the probability of the 09V's having pumpjet. He didn't say it was going to happen. He didn't say it wasn't going to happen. All he said was, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Adm. Ma didn't say a goddamn thing about it".

In the final scenario, if someone says "hey, I think there's 100% certainty of rim-driven pumpjet on 09V", he's obviously just as retarded as the person who says there's no chance. Neither of these two hypothetical individuals can possible know for sure what the PLAN is going to do. To even dare predict something with that much confidence is the embodiment of being delusional.

No one "poo-pooed" rim-driven pumpjet. Bltizo certainly didn't. I certainly didn't. If you allege we did, you're welcome to quote our comments on this forum or, for Bltizo, his article. We're poo-pooing the notion that Adm. Ma said anything about the pumpjet because he didn't.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I have problem with somebody showing he know more than he did here is your comment

#1247jobjed, Jul 23, 2017

Admiral Ma was talking about IEPS, not shaftless pumpjets.

It doesn't bode well for his article when the first paragraph is wrong.

We don't of yet whether the pump jet is shaftless or not. Now you said maybe?

 

[jobjed]

I have problem with somebody showing he know more than he did here is your comment

#1247jobjed, Jul 23, 2017

Explain how that comment translates to "water jet technology with rim driven propeller is out of the picture".

I said exactly what I've always been saying; Adm. Ma said nothing about rim-driven pumpjet.

 

[Iron Man]

Let get the record straight we have discussion about the future of China submarine based on Dr Ma interview .
Some of us suggest that it will be advanced submarine featuring IEPS and maybe even rim driven propeller and or pump jet technology

But you exclude this completely by saying Dr Ma only talk about IEPS and nothing else . So in another word water jet technology with rim driven propeller is out of the picture
Then blitzo come with an article implying that all those talk about rim riven is pure speculation.

Now you and blitzo backtrack from this position I don't have problem with that
But my advice is "don't count the chicken before it hatch"
We don't know because China is not transparent when it come to technology

It must be terrible for you. Everyone is against you and against China, aren't they? People "backtracking", people "lying", all in order to sully the name of China and to dirty your personal reputation, which apparently derives entirely from how awesome the 726 is or whether China is using rim drive on the 095. ROFLMAO

 

[Blitzo]

You didn't say it outright but you imply that all those talk about pumpjet is BS by saying in effect "where we get this rumor from ? turn out there is model of pumpjet next to the DC motor"
So that is why the rumor said it is pump jet

I definitely did not imply anything of the sort.

The original claim by SCMP, national interest, etc were saying Admiral Ma said that 09V would use a rimless pumpjet. This entire story was based on Admiral Ma's words in the documentary.

What I said was that Admiral Ma did not say anything about a rimless pumpjet, and that what he said about 09V (aka "next generation nuclear submarine) was that it would use his third generation IEPS. He made no mention of a rimless pumpjet.


In other words, my conclusion is two pronged:
1: what we can confirm is that 09V will very likely use the third generation IEPS, based on Admiral Ma's words in the documentary.
2: Admiral Ma said nothing about 09V using a rimless pumpjet of any kind.