071 LPD thread

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
1) Let's be honest here, even with the current inventory of every single amphibious assault ship in the PLAN's arsenal. There is no hope that the PLAN can mass a landing force that can match the numbers that Taiwan can put out in a single operation. Nor there is any indication that China is building anymore Type 072 LSTs as well to meet that issue. The last one was commission in 2016 and if there is any more build there should have been indication. So the only way forward for China would either be to build more (in which case the Zubr would be a more logical choice due to it being a smaller craft and thus more easier to build and still capable of carrying a significant amount of troops) or to change the tactic to one which by incremental buildup through multiple ops, they can build up a comparable force within a short amount of time, in which case again the Zubr will be a better choice because of its high speed which translates into high turnout rates, as well as a faster troop deployment process compared to the Type 072.
The way forward MAY be to build more Zubrs instead of more 072s. However, that is NOT the topic of discussion at hand. The topic of discussion at hand is neither building more Zubrs in lieu of 072s or some other kind of "incremental" buildup or actually about Zubrs at all, but about your surreal claim that 072s will be retired in favor of 071s, which is about as surreal a statement as anyone has made on SDF recently: "Once the Type 071s get build in sufficient numbers, I think that it is highly likely that the PLAN will seek to decommission its LSTs." You have now changed the goalposts to talk about building more Zubrs instead of 072s, whereas before you were talking about retiring 072s when "sufficient" numbers of 071s are built.

2) And I am not expecting everyone to agree with me, and least of all you. This is a free forum where we are all entitled to state our opinions. Nor is my argument completely dismissable at first glance as I have give ample explanation to back it up.
"Everyone"? Try a single one first. :)

3) Which is why the Zubr is much more suited for that than the Type 072 for all the reasons I have stated earlier.

4) And again, 2 dozen Zubrs is a very modest prediction here, if China is ever truly serious about an amphibious assault on Taiwan. A total double that number would not be out of contemplation. The problem with the Type 072 is that the Zubr and the Type 071 can do its job better, and the Zubr can be build more cheaply and readily then the Type 072.
You have provided absolutely no evidence that Zubrs are built "more cheaply and readily" than 072s, to speak nothing of 071s, which was your original comparison. Please provide some.

5) Maybe its because not all the Type 072 are spanking brand new ? Or that the existance of the Zubr and the Type 071 puts its use into question in the long run ?
It may put its production into question in the long run, but certainly not its existence, unless you somehow believe the PLAN enjoys throwing money away, which you apparently do....
 

schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
If China really gets serious about Taiwan, I would expect them to build many dozens (if not hundreds) of the smaller type 073 and type 074 LSTs in smaller and/or less sophisticated shipyards to add to their existing amphibious fleet.
This way they could invade in a big wave and put up a relatively big beach head even if the Taiwanese manage to destroy a significant number of ships. The forces landed from Zubrs and Type 071s can target landing zones that can't be reached by LST and try to prevent the Taiwanese to concentrate their forces.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
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D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
The way forward MAY be to build more Zubrs instead of more 072s. However, that is NOT the topic of discussion at hand. The topic of discussion at hand is neither building more Zubrs in lieu of 072s or some other kind of "incremental" buildup or actually about Zubrs at all, but about your surreal claim that 072s will be retired in favor of 071s, which is about as surreal a statement as anyone has made on SDF recently: "Once the Type 071s get build in sufficient numbers, I think that it is highly likely that the PLAN will seek to decommission its LSTs." You have now changed the goalposts to talk about building more Zubrs instead of 072s, whereas before you were talking about retiring 072s when "sufficient" numbers of 071s are built.


"Everyone"? Try a single one first. :)


You have provided absolutely no evidence that Zubrs are built "more cheaply and readily" than 072s, to speak nothing of 071s, which was your original comparison. Please provide some.


It may put its production into question in the long run, but certainly not its existence, unless you somehow believe the PLAN enjoys throwing money away, which you apparently do....
1) And I have already given explanations as to the Type 071 (better troop capacity, better range and protection) over the Type 072 which was back when the PLAN have nothing better then the Type 072 at that point. Nor do I see bringing up the Zubr as changing the goalposts seeing as it would be the only niche that the Type 072 can occupy then after the Type 071 is mass produced is a Taiwan/North Korea scenario, which the Zubr is much more suited for.
2) And why you in particular ? Wow aren't you a special snowflake :p..........
3)
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The cost of the Zubr is calculated to be 315 million based on the Ukrainian contract, which translates into 78 million apiece, finding the exact pricing for the Type 072 is a little tricky but the closest one I can find is this
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, which tentatively puts it at 105 million per ship. The same website puts the Type 071 at 300 million, but seeing how the Type 071 boasts additional capabilities over the Type 072 the increase in cost is well worth it.
The amount of labor for the production of the Zubr and the Type 072 respectively is a ever bigger non-issue. The Type 072 weighs 7000 tons compared to the Zubr's 500. And the ship is a tad lot bigger then the Zubr unless the viewer is having some eye problems.
4) Yes it does, seeing as the PLAN will then have 2 kinds of vessels that can do their respective tasks better then the Type 072. And the PLAN will then have to balance the issue of the costs of upkeep and capabilities of the fleet. Existence and production goes hand in hand no matter how you cut it.
 
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D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
P.S : Plus the Zubr can be built anywhere the appropriate facilities whereas the Type 072 needs at least a mid sized dry dock close to the water. So there is a plus for the Zubr at that,
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Guys this discussion has been killed many times and calling people snowflake is serious breach of rules

Where are the mods when you need them
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
1) And I have already given explanations as to the Type 071 (better troop capacity, better range and protection) over the Type 072 which was back when the PLAN have nothing better then the Type 072 at that point. Nor do I see bringing up the Zubr as changing the goalposts seeing as it would be the only niche that the Type 072 can occupy then after the Type 071 is mass produced is a Taiwan/North Korea scenario, which the Zubr is much more suited for.
Yes, the 071 is far better at doing the things the 072 is designed to do. Mainly because it's far larger, and also far more expensive, not only due to size but also due to the electronics and range of weapons and defenses available to it. This does not constitute any kind of definitive reason for why 072s should be retired when more 071s are built. You also fail to understand the roles of the 072 vs the Zubr. The 072 is larger than the Zubr and can carry far more men and vehicles than the Zubr; this is an important point that you either didn't know, didn't understand, or conveniently withheld from the discussion. The LST's role is to enable and support mass landings as part of a major invasion. The Zubr, and hovercraft in general, is designed to threaten beaches that conventional ships like the 072 are unable to beach on, opening a much larger range of options for the invader, such as a secondary, poorly-defended invasion site. Unfortunately for you, hovercraft-lifted forces both currently in the PLAN ORBAT AND in the fanboi-fantasyland PLAN with massed 071s, 075s, and Zubrs are regardless going to be woefully insufficient to achieve the core goal of the PLA (reunification of Taiwan) by themselves. They will need ALL the troop-carrying ships they can get their hands on, including 072s, which incidentally they will indeed decommission at some point. That point being when they complete their full term of service and their hulls are spent. Or when hell freezes over. Whichever comes first.

2) And why you in particular ? Wow aren't you a special snowflake :p..........
Oh, I didn't say "a single one" had to be me, little man. I mean ANY one person on SDF. So far it looks like people all over SDF have been dumping on all your queer 'ideas', including this one.

3)
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The cost of the Zubr is calculated to be 315 million based on the Ukrainian contract, which translates into 78 million apiece, finding the exact pricing for the Type 072 is a little tricky but the closest one I can find is this
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which tentatively puts it at 105 million per ship. The same website puts the Type 071 at 300 million, but seeing how the Type 071 boasts additional capabilities over the Type 072 the increase in cost is well worth it.
The amount of labor for the production of the Zubr and the Type 072 respectively is a ever bigger non-issue. The Type 072 weighs 7000 tons compared to the Zubr's 500. And the ship is a tad lot bigger then the Zubr unless the viewer is having some eye problems.
Are you kidding me with your Nations: Dawn of An Era crap? LOL do you not even bother to check what sources you pull off the internet? This is a GAME, with figures derived from the rectal orifices of the game designers with absolutely no primary sources to back them up. And just because a ship is more metal than another doesn't mean it costs more. Far more important are the electronics and weapons on the ship. The 072 has a navigational radar and some machine gun posts. The Zubr not only has complex fan-driven ducted systems powered by GTs, it has ECM/ESM systems, search radar, FCR, CIWS, rocket/decoy launchers, MANPADS, and mines. Saying the Zubr costs less than the 072 because it's smaller is about as dumb as saying that a 054A costs less than a giant post-Panamax 10,000 TEU container ship because it's far smaller. In actuality those 400m long giants on average cost less than $100 million while the estimates of the 054A put it somewhere in the neighborhood of $250 million.

4) Yes it does, seeing as the PLAN will then have 2 kinds of vessels that can do their respective tasks better then the Type 072. And the PLAN will then have to balance the issue of the costs of upkeep and capabilities of the fleet. Existence and production goes hand in hand no matter how you cut it.
Please tell me which ships the PLAN has actually decommissioned before its time. I've held that the 051s should have been cut from the fleet long ago due to their liability in a modern shooting war, but even these ships the PLAN will apparently not be cut early. And they are far less valuable to the PLAN than 072s. In fact ANY floating chunk of metal with engines and the capacity to carry troops is more valuable to the PLAN than a hopelessly obsolescent surface combatant that can no longer perform its duties adequately. And seeing as how the PLAN is still far short of having the lifting capacity to deal with a Taiwan scenario, the existence of the 072 and the production of 071 certainly will not be going "hand in hand". They won't go hand in hand even after all the 071s are done being produced.
 

jobjed

Captain
finding the exact pricing for the Type 072 is a little tricky but the closest one I can find is this
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which tentatively puts it at 105 million per ship. The same website puts the Type 071 at 300 million, but seeing how the Type 071 boasts additional capabilities over the Type 072 the increase in cost is well worth it.

That source is pretty wrong. The first 071 cost 1 billion yuan as revealed by a PLAN technical officer. Initial estimate was 2 billion yuan but the PLAN managed to negotiate/redesign the vessel to cost just half of that.

Read this for a summary of known PLAN vessel and equipment costs.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

Guest
Yes, the 071 is far better at doing the things the 072 is designed to do. Mainly because it's far larger, and also far more expensive, not only due to size but also due to the electronics and range of weapons and defenses available to it. This does not constitute any kind of definitive reason for why 072s should be retired when more 071s are built. You also fail to understand the roles of the 072 vs the Zubr. The 072 is larger than the Zubr and can carry far more men and vehicles than the Zubr; this is an important point that you either didn't know, didn't understand, or conveniently withheld from the discussion. The LST's role is to enable and support mass landings as part of a major invasion. The Zubr, and hovercraft in general, is designed to threaten beaches that conventional ships like the 072 are unable to beach on, opening a much larger range of options for the invader, such as a secondary, poorly-defended invasion site. Unfortunately for you, hovercraft-lifted forces both currently in the PLAN ORBAT AND in the fanboi-fantasyland PLAN with massed 071s, 075s, and Zubrs are regardless going to be woefully insufficient to achieve the core goal of the PLA (reunification of Taiwan) by themselves. They will need ALL the troop-carrying ships they can get their hands on, including 072s, which incidentally they will indeed decommission at some point. That point being when they complete their full term of service and their hulls are spent. Or when hell freezes over. Whichever comes first.


Oh, I didn't say "a single one" had to be me, little man. I mean ANY one person on SDF. So far it looks like people all over SDF have been dumping on all your queer 'ideas', including this one.


Are you kidding me with your Nations: Dawn of An Era crap? LOL do you not even bother to check what sources you pull off the internet? This is a GAME, with figures derived from the rectal orifices of the game designers with absolutely no primary sources to back them up. And just because a ship is more metal than another doesn't mean it costs more. Far more important are the electronics and weapons on the ship. The 072 has a navigational radar and some machine gun posts. The Zubr not only has complex fan-driven ducted systems powered by GTs, it has ECM/ESM systems, search radar, FCR, CIWS, rocket/decoy launchers, MANPADS, and mines. Saying the Zubr costs less than the 072 because it's smaller is about as dumb as saying that a 054A costs less than a giant post-Panamax 10,000 TEU container ship because it's far smaller. In actuality those 400m long giants on average cost less than $100 million while the estimates of the 054A put it somewhere in the neighborhood of $250 million.


Please tell me which ships the PLAN has actually decommissioned before its time. I've held that the 051s should have been cut from the fleet long ago due to their liability in a modern shooting war, but even these ships the PLAN will apparently not be cut early. And they are far less valuable to the PLAN than 072s. In fact ANY floating chunk of metal with engines and the capacity to carry troops is more valuable to the PLAN than a hopelessly obsolescent surface combatant that can no longer perform its duties adequately. And seeing as how the PLAN is still far short of having the lifting capacity to deal with a Taiwan scenario, the existence of the 072 and the production of 071 certainly will not be going "hand in hand". They won't go hand in hand even after all the 071s are done being produced.

Well I don't see you bringing up other sources on the Type 072 costs. So you don't have much in the way to complain on how I do research seeing you have none.
And I am not denying that the Type 072 can carry more cargo then the Zubr, but I have emphasized that the Zubr has other advantages over the Type 072. A single Zubr can make 2 round trips in the time frame that the Type 072 can make one.
Moreover, I don't have to subscribe to your nonsensical nonsense on how what I post must concur with your purid and infantile notional of acceptance. If you or any of your ilk don't want to accept it that's fine.
And I did not say that the Zubr would necessarily cost less due to it being smaller, but the amount of labour and materials required for its construction would assuredly be less then the Type 072, or do you have a reading comprehension? And it is not like the Type 072 is unarmed, the latest vessels also have FCR, guns and the capacity to lay mines as so required (mines are not restricted to the Zubrs only). And if the Type 072 is actually lacking such critical defense systems, it would only make the Zubr even more potent over it (as it would be nothing more than a troop carry tub ripe for the picking).

As for you claim on the Type 072 serving out the end of their useful service, at least we have that in agreement. Seeing that most of the variants are at least 15-20 years old with the possibility of the PLAN eeking out another 10-15 years worth from them. My original post for the Type 071 over the Type 072 was always based on the PLAN bringing in sufficient numbers of Type 071s, something that won't happen until the next decade or so at least.
 
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