071 LPD thread
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Well there you have it, 3321 is now with 999
And for a over the horizon amphibious landing helicopters and LCAC are a fundamental must, floating off swimming AFV is not a modern amphibious assault, and very vunerable to anti ship missile
And I don't think the Chinese LCAC can take only one AFV/IFV, see below, the LCAC is about 30m length, can lift 60-70tons and has enough room for at least 3 AFV, each AFV is less than 20 tons and less than 10m in length so I see 3 AFV per LCAC
Now for the question, how many LCAC can a Type 071 LPD take, well that is a good point and here's a cut away model which shows 4 LCAC fitting into the LPD
But I do not think this is accurate because here are some pictures of the well deck which to me does not look like it will exceed 90m which means only 2 maybe 3 at a push LCAC will fit into the LPD
Therefore I would say that Type 071 can take 2-3 LCAC in turn each LCAC can take 3 vehicles which means each Type 071 can deploy 6-9 vehicles
In a over the horizon amphibious assault 2 LPD would land ~15 vehicles enough for a infantry company not to mention the helicopter drop of marines by air
Question is, is the Type 071 designed for over the horizon assault? I am not sure, maybe a new generation LPD/LHD will full fill that role because Type 071 does have its limitations, mainly the inability to carry 4 LCAC and 4 medium sized helicopters
Well there you have it, 3321 is now with 999
And for a over the horizon amphibious landing helicopters and LCAC are a fundamental must, floating off swimming AFV is not a modern amphibious assault, and very vunerable to anti ship missile
And I don't think the Chinese LCAC can take only one AFV/IFV, see below, the LCAC is about 30m length, can lift 60-70tons and has enough room for at least 3 AFV, each AFV is less than 20 tons and less than 10m in length so I see 3 AFV per LCAC
Now for the question, how many LCAC can a Type 071 LPD take, well that is a good point and here's a cut away model which shows 4 LCAC fitting into the LPD
But I do not think this is accurate because here are some pictures of the well deck which to me does not look like it will exceed 90m which means only 2 maybe 3 at a push LCAC will fit into the LPD
Therefore I would say that Type 071 can take 2-3 LCAC in turn each LCAC can take 3 vehicles which means each Type 071 can deploy 6-9 vehicles
In a over the horizon amphibious assault 2 LPD would land ~15 vehicles enough for a infantry company not to mention the helicopter drop of marines by air
Question is, is the Type 071 designed for over the horizon assault? I am not sure, maybe a new generation LPD/LHD will full fill that role because Type 071 does have its limitations, mainly the inability to carry 4 LCAC and 4 medium sized helicopters
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Precisely, it seems that PLAN and USMC has different requirement when comes to amphibious assault. You can see PLAN concentrated in building up the amphibious IFV with high speed mobility and firepower. I believe the LPD wil release them from mother ship like bees. They will spearhead and lead the line against small resistance to secure the beach or landing spot. The emphasize on LCAC is not that critical since most PLAN marine mechanised unit are capable of swimming.
That is why LCAC has a slow induction and production rate.
Trying to put US Style as guideline is meaningless since it will not fit PLAN dotrine. Mind you, PLAN marines are very well drill in amphibious assault with regular in their mind of retaking Taiwan. They have been doing all this drill for almost 2 decades with continuous refinement to suit them best.
Precisely, it seems that PLAN and USMC has different requirement when comes to amphibious assault. You can see PLAN concentrated in building up the amphibious IFV with high speed mobility and firepower. I believe the LPD wil release them from mother ship like bees. They will spearhead and lead the line against small resistance to secure the beach or landing spot. The emphasize on LCAC is not that critical since most PLAN marine mechanised unit are capable of swimming.
That is why LCAC has a slow induction and production rate.
Trying to put US Style as guideline is meaningless since it will not fit PLAN dotrine. Mind you, PLAN marines are very well drill in amphibious assault with regular in their mind of retaking Taiwan. They have been doing all this drill for almost 2 decades with continuous refinement to suit them best.
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
I agree with lion on this point. LCAC is a transport tool, not a fighting tool. The premise of LCAC is that you already had the beachhead and now is tranporting mechinized unit to push further inland. PLA's focus naturally is on the hardest intial step of establishing beachhead control. In that respect, LCAC is no help. Swimming IFV is still the only way wether you regard that as "modern" or not.
I agree with lion on this point. LCAC is a transport tool, not a fighting tool. The premise of LCAC is that you already had the beachhead and now is tranporting mechinized unit to push further inland. PLA's focus naturally is on the hardest intial step of establishing beachhead control. In that respect, LCAC is no help. Swimming IFV is still the only way wether you regard that as "modern" or not.
ladioussupp
Junior Member
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
LCAC is faster than floating IFV or tank. And LCAC can transport SPG and the heaviest tank such as Type 99G which is much capable than floating tank and Taiwan's M60A3 and M48H MBT. Moreover, LCAC can create "beachheads" inland, such as the center of Taipei city which is dozens kilometers away from the Tamsui river mouth. LCAC takes minutes along Tamsui river to Center of Taipei city. And floating tanks need to take hours there if they are not dragged by strong tides, currents and turbulence.
PLA LCAC assault is nightmare of Taiwan defense. M60A3 and M48H MBT are not a match to Type99. And MBT battalions are not garrisoned in the Taipei downtown. It is very difficult to transport MBT through traffics to counterattack Type-99G along the Tamsui riverside.
LCAC extends the "beach" to the riversides inland. So the defense needs to be spread out. Furthermore, LCAC can be launched from any suitable platforms. If it carries enough fuels for itself, LCAC can directly cross Taiwan strait by itself.
LCAC is faster than floating IFV or tank. And LCAC can transport SPG and the heaviest tank such as Type 99G which is much capable than floating tank and Taiwan's M60A3 and M48H MBT. Moreover, LCAC can create "beachheads" inland, such as the center of Taipei city which is dozens kilometers away from the Tamsui river mouth. LCAC takes minutes along Tamsui river to Center of Taipei city. And floating tanks need to take hours there if they are not dragged by strong tides, currents and turbulence.
PLA LCAC assault is nightmare of Taiwan defense. M60A3 and M48H MBT are not a match to Type99. And MBT battalions are not garrisoned in the Taipei downtown. It is very difficult to transport MBT through traffics to counterattack Type-99G along the Tamsui riverside.
LCAC extends the "beach" to the riversides inland. So the defense needs to be spread out. Furthermore, LCAC can be launched from any suitable platforms. If it carries enough fuels for itself, LCAC can directly cross Taiwan strait by itself.
franco-russe
Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Precisely. That is why both PLAN Marines are now fully equipped with amphibious AFV's: ZTD05, ZBD05, PLZ07B-122 and derived vehicles. Using the forward lower vehicle deck would probably allow them to carry close to two battalions in one 071 (50-60 AFV's).
I really do not think that the Marines and the LPD's have any central bearing on the Taiwan problem. They are all based in the South Sea Fleet, at Zhanjiang to be precise, and probably have roles related to the South China Sea islands and to South-East Asia generally.
It is the army that will take of Taiwan, using the Navy's LST's and LSM's and their own considerable fleet of LCT's and LCM's.
Precisely. That is why both PLAN Marines are now fully equipped with amphibious AFV's: ZTD05, ZBD05, PLZ07B-122 and derived vehicles. Using the forward lower vehicle deck would probably allow them to carry close to two battalions in one 071 (50-60 AFV's).
I really do not think that the Marines and the LPD's have any central bearing on the Taiwan problem. They are all based in the South Sea Fleet, at Zhanjiang to be precise, and probably have roles related to the South China Sea islands and to South-East Asia generally.
It is the army that will take of Taiwan, using the Navy's LST's and LSM's and their own considerable fleet of LCT's and LCM's.
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Is there a way to figure out the dimensions of a geometric shape in a picture using trigonometry or Pythagoras etc? It seems that the picture Asif posted of the 071 well deck is a good candidate as it is a regular shape with clearly defined borders.
Is there a way to figure out the dimensions of a geometric shape in a picture using trigonometry or Pythagoras etc? It seems that the picture Asif posted of the 071 well deck is a good candidate as it is a regular shape with clearly defined borders.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
yes it does not make any sense at all having the LPDs based so far away from Taiwan, which means only one thing, they are not going to be used for Taiwan scenario
therefore a beech landing on enemy territory who is equipped with surface based anti-ship missiles is low, hence the design of the Type 071 and its load requirments which do not conform for a over the horizon amphibous assault
it is in light of this missile threat that the USN developed the V22, which means the LPD/LHD can sit 50+km off the shore beyond the threat range of anti-ship missiles and still deliver a fast, heavy and quick load to the beech head
so what is the role for Type 071 LPD based on its design, well as you put it for small islands in South China area where a landing party can storm if tensions rise up, where threat level of anti-ship missile is not high concern
however, i still think that the Type 071 LPD design should have inco-operated some aspects for a over the horizon amphibous invasion, these days it is a pre-request for any modern marine force, but then maybe it has just enough capability for that with 2 LCACs and 2 Medium sized helos and using all 3 LPDs in a one wave they might just land enough troops and equipment from a distance without being too streched
therefore the scope is there for the next generation Type 071B or new LHD to include a full design requirement for a over the horizon invasion, which can be used for Taiwan or any other area where ships have to be stationed far out at sea and land thier forces from a safe distance
yes it does not make any sense at all having the LPDs based so far away from Taiwan, which means only one thing, they are not going to be used for Taiwan scenario
therefore a beech landing on enemy territory who is equipped with surface based anti-ship missiles is low, hence the design of the Type 071 and its load requirments which do not conform for a over the horizon amphibous assault
it is in light of this missile threat that the USN developed the V22, which means the LPD/LHD can sit 50+km off the shore beyond the threat range of anti-ship missiles and still deliver a fast, heavy and quick load to the beech head
so what is the role for Type 071 LPD based on its design, well as you put it for small islands in South China area where a landing party can storm if tensions rise up, where threat level of anti-ship missile is not high concern
however, i still think that the Type 071 LPD design should have inco-operated some aspects for a over the horizon amphibous invasion, these days it is a pre-request for any modern marine force, but then maybe it has just enough capability for that with 2 LCACs and 2 Medium sized helos and using all 3 LPDs in a one wave they might just land enough troops and equipment from a distance without being too streched
therefore the scope is there for the next generation Type 071B or new LHD to include a full design requirement for a over the horizon invasion, which can be used for Taiwan or any other area where ships have to be stationed far out at sea and land thier forces from a safe distance
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
If I remember correctly, OTH amphibious assault dimensions for the san antonio class were the V-22, LCAC, and EFV. That is to say, OTH amphibious assault has less to do with the LPD itself but more to do with the platforms it's operating.
ZBD/TD-05 doesn't traverse water as fast as EFV, but is still faster than "legacy" AAVs, keeping in mind EFV was cancelled.
071 can hold four 3320 type LCACs too. The only limiting factor is the lack of a tilt rotor air assault platform like V-22, but 071 can easily carry a good load of choppers, that is to say, at least 2 Z-8s and 2 Z-9s (some cutaways show 4 Z-8s may be able to squeeze into the hangar)
So really I think 071 is perfectly viable platform for OTH assault, it has the space for the LCACs, the space for the LCACs and AFVs. Basically, it is a san antonio without the fancy mast. Last year it was even revealed to displace about the same, at 26-27k tons.
But the whole concept of OTH assault would be redundant against a semi competent enemy considering most AShMs have ranges that easily exceed 50km anyway.
If I remember correctly, OTH amphibious assault dimensions for the san antonio class were the V-22, LCAC, and EFV. That is to say, OTH amphibious assault has less to do with the LPD itself but more to do with the platforms it's operating.
ZBD/TD-05 doesn't traverse water as fast as EFV, but is still faster than "legacy" AAVs, keeping in mind EFV was cancelled.
071 can hold four 3320 type LCACs too. The only limiting factor is the lack of a tilt rotor air assault platform like V-22, but 071 can easily carry a good load of choppers, that is to say, at least 2 Z-8s and 2 Z-9s (some cutaways show 4 Z-8s may be able to squeeze into the hangar)
So really I think 071 is perfectly viable platform for OTH assault, it has the space for the LCACs, the space for the LCACs and AFVs. Basically, it is a san antonio without the fancy mast. Last year it was even revealed to displace about the same, at 26-27k tons.
But the whole concept of OTH assault would be redundant against a semi competent enemy considering most AShMs have ranges that easily exceed 50km anyway.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
are you serious? there is no way the well deck is 120m+, thats about 60% of the overall length of the ship, that is what it would have to be to hold 4 LCAC, have you seen the well deck? its no longer than 80-90m at a strech, there is space only for 2 LCAC
and why are we looking at cutaways when we have real pictures of the inside, the model i posted clearly shows 4 LCAC and show the well deck extending way inside the ship, which is certainly not true from the real pictures
about the hanger, it is hard to see it exceed 40-45m, each Z8 is 23m in length you need "wiggle" space you need extra room, you need saftey line theres no way 4 x Z8 will fit in there, even if Z8 had folding tails still 4 x Z8 would struggle
so the carrying capacity is clearly 2 x LCAC and 2 x Z8 (plus maybe 2 x Z9) at a push
are you serious? there is no way the well deck is 120m+, thats about 60% of the overall length of the ship, that is what it would have to be to hold 4 LCAC, have you seen the well deck? its no longer than 80-90m at a strech, there is space only for 2 LCAC
and why are we looking at cutaways when we have real pictures of the inside, the model i posted clearly shows 4 LCAC and show the well deck extending way inside the ship, which is certainly not true from the real pictures
about the hanger, it is hard to see it exceed 40-45m, each Z8 is 23m in length you need "wiggle" space you need extra room, you need saftey line theres no way 4 x Z8 will fit in there, even if Z8 had folding tails still 4 x Z8 would struggle
so the carrying capacity is clearly 2 x LCAC and 2 x Z8 (plus maybe 2 x Z9) at a push