056 class FFL/corvette

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AndrewS

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When I look at the Type-56 and compare them to the K-130, I don't see them being underarmed.

But they do have a different focus on ASW and patrol, rather than anti-air and anti-surface.

Because in anti-air, it is airborne assets from the nearby mainland China or a carrier which will be the decisive factor in shooting down opposing planes/missiles. And in anti-surface warfare, it is again airborne assets which are best placed to detect enemy ships and then launch missiles against those ships.

Plus there should also be nearby Type-54 frigates and Type-52D destroyers for area air-defence, as a backup.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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schenkus said:
5 K-130 cost 1.2 billion euro, so ~300 million USD each. I guess the small numbers make for high costs per ship.
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Yes they do...and particularly for any western Nation with all of the myriad of labor, safety, health, insurance, and tax costs.

They would have needed to build 12 or more of them for it to impact that drain.
 
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Iron Man

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I would like to think that if the PLAN ever builds a "056B" they will focus on the ASW aspect of this ship even more and increase the displacement enough to incorporate a hangar so that they can have an organic ASW helicopter capability, and would no longer need to rely on shore-based helos. When it comes online, a naval Z-20 would be a perfect candidate to pair with the 056B. The 056 was conceived during a time when the PLAN and the Chinese military in general had a severe deficit in helicopters, but I have no doubt this is fast becoming an artifact of history, and a hangarized 056 would IMO be the ultimate expression of the 056 platform, making it a powerful and compact weapon against subs which are probably the biggest threat against PLAN ships.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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Iron Man said:
I would like to think that if the PLAN ever builds a "056B" they will focus on the ASW aspect of this ship even more and increase the displacement enough to incorporate a hangar so that they can have an organic ASW helicopter capability, and would no longer need to rely on shore-based helos. When it comes online, a naval Z-20 would be a perfect candidate to pair with the 056B. The 056 was conceived during a time when the PLAN and the Chinese military in general had a severe deficit in helicopters, but I have no doubt this is fast becoming an artifact of history, and a hangarized 056 would IMO be the ultimate expression of the 056 platform, making it a powerful and compact weapon against subs which are probably the biggest threat against PLAN ships.
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I agree, although I'd like them to retain the 056A's VDS and TAS set up as well, meaning if they do integrate a hangar on top of the stern, then it may end up getting a bit top heavy.
If they do remove the VDS and TAS then they could probably integrate a hangar by lowering the flight deck level, but I can't help but feel like that would remove much of the teeth of the 056A's ASW sensor capability.

One potential compromise is to develop an entirely new class of corvette/light frigate, such as based on the C-28A class, which could offer a more comprehensive ASW package (sonars, helicopter hangar -- possibly even two helicopter hangars) as well as longer endurance than 056, and also possibly to integrate a small number of VLS for Yu-8 or other VL-ASROC type weapons as well.
Of course, the problem with a new, larger design is that it won't be quite as ubiquitous or easily mass produced as an 056 variant, but they will have the potential to be quite well optimized.

Then there's the 054A/X factor -- if they are built in sufficiently large numbers, then there would be quite a few 054A/Xs with onboard helicopters to have a significant role of ASW even near Chinese waters to supplement 056/As, supported by land based MPAs, while the remaining 054A/Xs and medium weight destroyers like 052D/X would partly fulfill the ASW role in more distant water operations.

So there's quite a few routes for the 056 class to fit into for the Navy's overall future ASW strategy, especially near China's waters... and it'll be interesting to see how they go about it.
 
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Iron Man

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Bltizo said:
I agree, although I'd like them to retain the 056A's VDS and TAS set up as well, meaning if they do integrate a hangar on top of the stern, then it may end up getting a bit top heavy.
If they do remove the VDS and TAS then they could probably integrate a hangar by lowering the flight deck level, but I can't help but feel like that would remove much of the teeth of the 056A's ASW sensor capability.

One potential compromise is to develop an entirely new class of corvette/light frigate, such as based on the C-28A class, which could offer a more comprehensive ASW package (sonars, helicopter hangar -- possibly even two helicopter hangars) as well as longer endurance than 056, and also possibly to integrate a small number of VLS for Yu-8 or other VL-ASROC type weapons as well.
Of course, the problem with a new, larger design is that it won't be quite as ubiquitous or easily mass produced as an 056 variant, but they will have the potential to be quite well optimized.

Then there's the 054A/X factor -- if they are built in sufficiently large numbers, then there would be quite a few 054A/Xs with onboard helicopters to have a significant role of ASW even near Chinese waters to supplement 056/As, supported by land based MPAs, while the remaining 054A/Xs and medium weight destroyers like 052D/X would partly fulfill the ASW role in more distant water operations.

So there's quite a few routes for the 056 class to fit into for the Navy's overall future ASW strategy, especially near China's waters... and it'll be interesting to see how they go about it.
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I don't know that a straight-up hangar addition would make it too top heavy. There are several corvettes that are only slightly larger that have hangars, including

the Spanish Espora (1,790 tons w/ 11.0m beam),
the German MEKO 140 (1,790 tons w/ 11.1m beam),
the Italian Sirio (1,580 tons w/ 12.2m beam) and Cassiopea (1,549 tons w/ 11.8m beam),
the Israeli Sa'ar 5 (1,275 tons w/ 11.8m beam),
the Brazilian Inhauma (1,970 tons w/ 11.4m beam),
the Mexican Oaxaca (1,524 tons w/ 10.5m beam) and Durango (1,554 tons w/ 10.5m beam),
the Russian Steregushchy (2,200 ton w/ 11.6m beam).

I stopped searching after that, so there may be more. It seems like the vast majority of modern corvettes with displacement of 1,500+ tons have a hangar rather than just a helipad. By way of comparison the 056 is ~1,500 tons with 11.1m beam.

One thing that is important to remember is that these ships wouldn't necessarily need to accommodate any Ka-28 helicopters that require 2.5 to 3 deck high hangars. They could just be designed with the likes of the Z-9 and Z-20 in mind, meaning the back end would only need to be a single deck higher, like this:
Type 056B.jpg

Given that the hangar would use up the space underneath the HHQ-10 launcher and aft mast that is currently being used for something else, the ship may also have to be lengthened by a few meters, and also perhaps to add living spaces for the additional aviation crew that would be embarked. This kind of modification would come at a minimum of increased cost and should easily be absorbed into the budget for these ships; no need for a clean sheet new design. This modified 056B would become a truly self-contained lethal sub-hunter.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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Iron Man said:
I don't know that a straight-up hangar addition would make it too top heavy. There are several corvettes that are only slightly larger that have hangars, including

the Spanish Espora (1,790 tons w/ 11.0m beam),
the German MEKO 140 (1,790 tons w/ 11.1m beam),
the Italian Sirio (1,580 tons w/ 12.2m beam) and Cassiopea (1,549 tons w/ 11.8m beam),
the Israeli Sa'ar 5 (1,275 tons w/ 11.8m beam),
the Brazilian Inhauma (1,970 tons w/ 11.4m beam),
the Mexican Oaxaca (1,524 tons w/ 10.5m beam) and Durango (1,554 tons w/ 10.5m beam),
the Russian Steregushchy (2,200 ton w/ 11.6m beam).

I stopped searching after that, so there may be more. It seems like the vast majority of modern corvettes with displacement of 1,500+ tons have a hangar rather than just a helipad. By way of comparison the 056 is ~1,500 tons with 11.1m beam.

One thing that is important to remember is that these ships wouldn't necessarily need to accommodate any Ka-28 helicopters that require 2.5 to 3 deck high hangars. They could just be designed with the likes of the Z-9 and Z-20 in mind, meaning the back end would only need to be a single deck higher, like this:
View attachment 31413

Given that the hangar would use up the space underneath the HHQ-10 launcher and aft mast that is currently being used for something else, the ship may also have to be lengthened by a few meters, and also perhaps to add living spaces for the additional aviation crew that would be embarked. This kind of modification would come at a minimum of increased cost and should easily be absorbed into the budget for these ships; no need for a clean sheet new design. This modified 056B would become a truly self-contained lethal sub-hunter.
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If a prospective hangar is only meant to accommodate the height of a Z-20 then top heaviness may not be as much of an issue -- I was thinking of installing a hangar with the same dimensions of all recent combatants (i.e.: enough to accommodate a Ka-28 as well).
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
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Bltizo said:
If a prospective hangar is only meant to accommodate the height of a Z-20 then top heaviness may not be as much of an issue -- I was thinking of installing a hangar with the same dimensions of all recent combatants (i.e.: enough to accommodate a Ka-28 as well).
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We have had this discussion on a number of occasions.

Unless they increase the size of the hull, particularly in length, they have to give quite bit up to get a hanger on there.

Here's how the current sized Type 056, using 584 as an example, would look with a hanger large enough to accommodate a Z-9.

Type056-hangar-01.jpg Type056-hangar-02.jpg
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Jeff Head said:
We have had this discussion on a number of occasions.

Unless they increase the size of the hull, particularly in length, they have to give quite bit up to get a hanger on there.

Here's how the current sized Type 056, using 584 as an example, would look with a hanger large enough to accommodate a Z-9.

View attachment 31428 View attachment 31429
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I'd like to see a Type 056C version with the hangar. That version would lose some of the equipment aft, some of which is ASW equipment.

But then you could develop a strategy of having three Type 056s operating together for ASW work. Two 053Bs accompanied by an 053C so that the helo could work with all three.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Iron Man said:
I would like to think that if the PLAN ever builds a "056B" they will focus on the ASW aspect of this ship even more and increase the displacement enough to incorporate a hangar so that they can have an organic ASW helicopter capability, and would no longer need to rely on shore-based helos. When it comes online, a naval Z-20 would be a perfect candidate to pair with the 056B. The 056 was conceived during a time when the PLAN and the Chinese military in general had a severe deficit in helicopters, but I have no doubt this is fast becoming an artifact of history, and a hangarized 056 would IMO be the ultimate expression of the 056 platform, making it a powerful and compact weapon against subs which are probably the biggest threat against PLAN ships.
Click to expand...

The cheapest and least drastic design change for any 056B with a hangar would be to keep expectations in check and perhaps build a hangar only capable of accommodating helo drones such as the MQ-8 to increase the ship's ASW capability but not to such a point where essentially, a whole new ship design is required.
 
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