PLAN Type 054 FFG Thread II

Discussion in 'Navy' started by tphuang, Sep 14, 2008.

  1. Tam
    Offline

    Tam Captain
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes Received:
    3,612
    The Russians stopped angling their cold launched VLS when they figured the probabilities of failure happening is too low to bother, based on historical record. The Chinese may also have arrived to the same conclusion. These also include land based examples.
     
  2. Tam
    Offline

    Tam Captain
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes Received:
    3,612
    The thing is, a missile the size and weight of the HHQ-16 --- 700kg class --- has the potential to serve a range from 40km to 160km. Assuming the missile length to be 5.2m to 5.5 meters, the VLS depth can be under 6m. This can allow you to put the VLS on smaller, tighter ships.

    I don't think the radars on the 054B --- assuming the ones I previously discussed, a rotating single or dual faced S-band radar small enough to be put on top of the mast but the face much smaller than the Type 346's, then a set of small four faced X-band radars below it , analogous to SAMPSON on top and Thales APAR beneath --- are able to support SAM missile engagement in excess of 160km, and a range from 120 to 150km would be more like it. That won't be able to exercise HHQ-9B and beyond with excess of 200+ km range engagement. This however, still fits what a 700kg medium sized SAM can potentially do.

    That is why for the high range stuff, you need the full Type 346X set which won't fit on a 054B.
     
  3. Bltizo
    Offline

    Bltizo Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    12,522
    Likes Received:
    16,305
    I think an array half the size of Type 346A or similar in size to SAMPSON should be able to support SAM engagement in excess of 200km, after all it's not like Aster 30's engagement range is limited by SAMPSON rather than the missile itself.

    Additionally, I don't think it is reasonable to come up with a whole new length of the UVLS to make the idea of further developing the HHQ-16 seem more attractive. I think if they had been planning such a length of the UVLS it would've been described as such from the outset and would've heard about it by now.


    The way I see it, there are three engagement categories:
    10-50 km: which in the future should be the domain of the quad pack MR SAM
    50-200 km: which would be the domain of HHQ-9 variants
    200-400+ km: the domain of the new VLRSAM


    I believe frigates should have the ability to engage aerial targets of 200+km if required, though obviously the bulk of the aerial targets they engage would be with MR SAMs
    I do not expect frigates to have the capability or requirement to engage targets greatly in excess of 200km, as that would come down to the large destroyers and destroyers.
     
  4. Gloire_bb
    Offline

    Gloire_bb Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    681
    True area defence mostly is a destroyer domain.
    If not by name, then by functionality and bill.

    Imho, but GP/ASW combatant can and shall settle on more modest levels.
     
  5. Interstellar
    Offline

    Interstellar Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    179
    Calm down.

    There is nothing wrong with the paragraph in article Кинжал. The missile is launched by газовой катапульты (gas catapult) and no one is denying that. Your question is whether the gas is generated by gas bottles or explosive/energetic material/dynamite.

    Please do read materials I posted.

    郑宏建. 舰载导弹发射装置发展趋势——通用化垂直发射装置[J]. 飞航导弹, 2003(4):24-27.

    The author is an engineer of the tactical missile testing range of PLAN.

    I would be appreciate if you could provide an official source to the paragraph in article Редут. But by looking at the heavy smoke you can already tell it is not simply сжатого воздуха (compressed air).

    2.png 1.jpg
     
  6. Tam
    Offline

    Tam Captain
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes Received:
    3,612
    This was taken three years ago. Environmental activist ship the Steve Irwin encounters Chinese Navy Warship 571. You can hear 571 asks a question to the Steve Irwin in a female voice as the Steve Irwin tracks a Chinese vessel that was using drift nets and turns them in. The video errs in saying there are two Chinese warships, the silhouette on the video appears that of a US Navy LPD of the San Antonio class, and Chinese Navy Warship 571 might have been shadowing the LPD.

     
  7. Viktor Jav
    Offline

    Viktor Jav Senior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    730
    To be frank, I did be betting 10 bucks that this is one sea altercation of which Japan is definitely rooting for China.LOL
     
  8. Viktor Jav
    Offline

    Viktor Jav Senior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    730
    It is not impossible. There is good reason to believe that China will install the U VLS on damn near every ship that can take it. The main issue that I see with the HQ-16 is not the range but rather the number of missiles each ship can carry, it being a Cold War design. With newer missiles like the 9M96 which can be quad packed the only real advantage the HQ-16 will have would be its warhead weight.
    Must the 054B have LR to VLR SAMs ? Certainly that did be an advantage but I did rate it as a plus rather than an absolute necessity given the role it is supposed to play. A more advance radar with the same search range as the Sea Eagle would make it a very effective AA ship already.
     
    #4368 Viktor Jav, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  9. Bltizo
    Offline

    Bltizo Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    12,522
    Likes Received:
    16,305
    Considering China had no issue with the Steve Irwin as written in the description of the video and the ship proceeded unmolested, I wouldn't really describe it as an altercation.


    I don't think 054B needs to have VLR SAMs, but I think the ability to fire LR SAMs should be required.
    A more advanced radar with a similar range to Sea Eagle would be quite capable of guiding future LR SAMs as such missiles would likely have ARH and a radar with 250-300km range would be capable of doing the midcourse guidance for a LR SAM of 200+km range up to the terminal phase.
     
  10. Viktor Jav
    Offline

    Viktor Jav Senior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    730
    Well I am more referring to a potential scuffle like the ones the Sea Shepherds likes to pull with the Japanese wailing fleet in the Arctic Such as this
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10363013

    They do that with Japan cause they know they can get away with it, if they try that on a Chinese fishing ship I did expect the Chinese coast guard would have no compulsion of installing a battering ram on one of their 10,000 ton cutters to return the favour.

    Well I did hazard the old saying that a radar's effective range is usually much less then the officially stated one, given issues such as radar strength and so on. This is not to include other non natural factors like EW and stealth tech. So a new radar with the same stated range of the Sea Eagle would most likely have a 200-km effective range, it did take a 052D class radar at least to make full use of a LR SAM, and I do not reasonably foresee such a expensive and large radar to be on a frigate.
     
    #4370 Viktor Jav, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
Loading...

Share This Page