054/A FFG Thread II

[plawolf]

So if these rumours are true, that means the main difference between the 054A and 054B would be propulsion and weapons.

From the above, my guess is that the 054B will probably be more of a proof-of-concept, transitional, small production run class, similar to the 052B and original 054 classes, rather than be another mainstream 054A class.

In terms of weapons, the biggest change would be to replace the current VLS with the new universal VLS (uVLS), and may serve as a proof of concept design to allow the eventual retrofitting of the uVLS onto the existing 054A fleet (hence the rationale for keeping the tonnage and dimensions similar).

The proposed hybrid electric production is probably because the PLAN isn't fully sold/confident on going fully electric, and/or the technology just isn't mature enough (maybe what the 057 class is most waiting on).

So, to sum up, I think, based on those rumours, that the 054B class will mainly be used to develop technologies for follow on programs.

One will likely be an 054A MLU programme, to retrofit the newer electronics, uVLS and sensors that will be tested and refined on the 054B class onto the existing 054A class. So in effect, the 054A class will probably be brought up to the same standard as the 054B eventually in all aspects bar propulsion.

The propulsion systems of the 054B will be used as a proof of concept that will lead on to all electric drive ships like the 057 class, and later versions of the 055.

 

[shen]

Disclaimer: This is not my words, only short/rough translation of what fzgfzy say in CJDBY.

Regarding 054B:

1. It was called 057 at first but changed to 054B. because certain someone think is not possible at this time and probably needs a few more year. (My guess is some new system not ready?)

2. Electric, but not pure Electric. Better/stronger ASW function than current 054A. ( My guess is

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?)

3. No shield and look identical to the newest variant of 054A from the outside, no need for shield as there are too many shields already. Cost less money and faster. (This means no Type-45 DDG style integrated mast?)

4. Pretty much same tonnage as 054A but with newest weapons and electronic.

5. Won't start until the end of 2016 the earliest. Might buid at the same time as the last few 054A.

6. Eight more 054A or being ordered( 24+8=32 054A then?)

Link to the 054B post.

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"Electric, but not pure electric" could mean something like the FREMM design.

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For 054B, perhaps two diesel generators connected to two motors on shafts, provide up to 15kn of silent cruise speed. Good for ASW work. Then one QC-280 for boost, connected either in CODAG or CODOG. This is going to take significant rework of the ship to accommodate this kind of propulsion though.

By "too many shields already" I think he refer to the numerous 052C and D built or under construction. Shield = Aegis style. So there is no need for a fixed PAR equipped frigate design. But we may still see Daring style integrated mast, which is not a fixed PAR design, on the 054B.

 

[plawolf]

"Electric, but not pure electric" could mean something like the FREMM design.

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For 054B, perhaps two diesel generators connected to two motors on shafts, provide up to 15kn of silent cruise speed. Good for ASW work. Then one QC-280 for boost, connected either in CODAG or CODOG. This is going to take significant rework of the ship to accommodate this kind of propulsion though.

By "too many shields already" I think he refer to the numerous 052C and D built or under construction. Shield = Aegis style. So there is no need for a fixed PAR equipped frigate design. But we may still see Daring style integrated mast, which is not a fixed PAR design, on the 054B.

So do you think the hybrid diesel-electric drive is an interim so step towards fully electric drives, or is that a perfectly good design in itself?

I guess the main question is, what kind of drives will the 057 and 055 be aiming to use? Full electric or hybrid?

 

[kickars]

Just to add on what Jaybird translated, under the same topic on cjdby someone also claims the tonnage will be close to 5000t which will be few hundred tons heavier than the latest 054A. And the same same fzgfzy also claims that 32 cells (didn't claim if they are the newer version used on 052D), 1 hanger and integrated mast (not as integrated as many hope, but integrated nevertheless).

 

[shen]

So do you think the hybrid diesel-electric drive is an interim so step towards fully electric drives, or is that a perfectly good design in itself?

I guess the main question is, what kind of drives will the 057 and 055 be aiming to use? Full electric or hybrid?

I think it is definitely good idea to move to full electric eventually. Eliminating the shaft and mechanical gears significantly reduce complexity and provide much greater flexibility for internal layout. For example, on the QE class carrier, because of the full electric drive, they can put the gas turbine generators right below the two superstructures on the hangar deck, the main diesel generators are still buried deep in the hull below waterline. The benefit of this design is that the big ductwork necessarily for gas turbines airintake and exhaust don't have to travel far and take up valuable internal space. Diesels use much small pipes. But that does expose half of your power in a rather vulnerable position. We'll have to wait for some operational experience to see if that's a good idea. Without going to this extreme, full electric drive, having decoupled the drive train, certainly give you more flexibility on how to arrange the internals.

Other than that full electric drive also provide greater flexibility in power distribution.

It is still rather new technology, so inevitably full electric drive will be more expensive and experience some technical challenges. I have read some reports about operational problems with Daring class's propulsion. China is taking a rather conservative approach. The coast guard already have a class of all electric ships. We'll see how they fare. I think there are already rumors that the first 055 class won't feature full electric propulsion.

 

[delft]

OT
Some experience with electric propulsion is already old. US battle ships a century ago used steam turbine electric propulsion because mechanical gearing between steam turbine and propeller shaft was beyond the capabilities of US industry. Some sixty years ago two ships for arctic and antarctic research were built in the Netherlands for the Soviet Union, named Ob and Lena, with diesel electric propulsion to protect the screws from damage by ice.

 

[shen]

OT
Some experience with electric propulsion is already old. US battle ships a century ago used steam turbine electric propulsion because mechanical gearing between steam turbine and propeller shaft was beyond the capabilities of US industry. Some sixty years ago two ships for arctic and antarctic research were built in the Netherlands for the Soviet Union, named Ob and Lena, with diesel electric propulsion to protect the screws from damage by ice.

That is true. However in the years since the American turbo-electric warships were built to the present there has been important advances in electrical equipment that resulted in considerable reduction in mass. So whereas the old turbo-electric transmissions were heavier than mechanical transmission and it was a difficult choice whether the advantages of the turbo-electric outweigh the disadvantage (especially in the weight/volume constrained naval application). Most navies said no to old fashion turb-electric. With modern electrical equipment used in combination with gas turbine/diesel, the balance swings decidedly in favor of electric drive.

 

[antiterror13]

very exciting time

I think it is definitely good idea to move to full electric eventually ............................................. China is taking a rather conservative approach. The coast guard already have a class of all electric ships. We'll see how they fare. I think there are already rumors that the first 055 class won't feature full electric propulsion.

Great, which Chinese class of coast guard that have full electric? I believe eventually all ships would be fully electric, it is simply much more efficient in most ways, including the number of engineers and technicians on the ship would be significantly reduced, so cheaper to operate. Its a bit off topic, it might result in employment issue

 

[steve_rolfe]

It is being speculated by Chinese military observers at 'CJDBY' that the 20th 054A ship (578), may also of been commissioned recently............though they don't give a date or a picture of a commissioning ceremony.........but some have come to this conclusion by stating that the flag that the ship is flying at its stern, signifies that the ship is active in the Navy?

Is this thing about the flag true?............anyway here is a picture!

 

[lcloo]

It is being speculated by Chinese military observers at 'CJDBY' that the 20th 054A ship (578), may also of been commissioned recently............though they don't give a date or a picture of a commissioning ceremony.........but some have come to this conclusion by stating that the flag that the ship is flying at its stern, signifies that the ship is active in the Navy?

Is this thing about the flag true?............anyway here is a picture!View attachment 17604

I think that depends on whether the flag in question is China's national flag or PLAN flag. If it is PLAN flag It is then confirmed the ship is in PLAN service, i.e. in commission.

If it is a national flag, I don't think that can be a sign of confirmation that it is in commission.