054/A FFG Thread II

This is basically what I hope an 054A successor looks like.

...
That said I can't really see how many VLS there are -- ...

4D0eUTk.jpg

I closed up and can see 48 VLS, but that's probably not what you meant ... anyway, could somebody be so kind and translate the text in the bottom-left (describing the VLS)
 

no_name

Colonel
The resolution makes it hard to make out the words. Noticed the top title is skewed, meaning that this is probably a camera photo take of something printed out at close distance, and the focus would be out for some parts of the photo.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
I don 't think this has been posted here before:


How Much Do China’s Warships Actually Cost?
Our author offers an estimate, focusing on the Type 054A (Jiangkai-II) frigate.
By Gabe Collins
June 18, 2015

thediplomat_2015-06-18_14-17-12-386x279.jpg


What does it actually cost Chinese naval shipyards to build major warships? Chinese sources do not disclose actual or estimated warship and submarine production costs, so it falls on external analysts to generate this important dataset. Quantifying warship production costs bolsters our understanding of how China’s defense budget actually translates into hardware and capabilities.

This analysis focuses on the Type 054A (NATO codename: Jiangkai-II) frigate, for three primary reasons. First, it is China’s most prolifically produced large, modern major surface combatant. Second, it has been series produced for several years. Third, it is the cornerstone of the PLAN’s surface warfare capabilities at present and has actually seen sustained (and ongoing) operational deployments.

Readers should note that this is a “Beta Version” estimate of the Type 054A’s production costs. It is well-developed, but will almost certainly evolve as more participants contribute their insights. I share my core calculations and assumptions in order to provide a springboard for other analysts and hopefully catalyze a broader discussion that advances our knowledge of China’s naval-industrial complex.

Costs by Segment

This author estimates that the Type 054A currently costs a total of approximately $348 million per vessel to build and fit out (Exhibit 1). This estimate derives from breaking the ship down by its main systems categories (hull and equipment, propulsion/power transmission, weapons, and electronics) and calculating their respective costs, as well as the cost of the labor needed to assemble the ship into a finished product. The estimate relies heavily on valuation by analogy in many cases because Chinese sources simply do not disclose cost information on the vast majority of the inputs used in warships being built in China. As such, the figure as stands is conservative and may overestimate the construction and equipment costs.

Exhibit 1: Type 054A Cost Breakdown

Million USD, Percentage of total estimated ship cost (numbers rounded)

thediplomat_2015-06-18_14-12-08.png

Source: Alibaba, U.S. Navy, Local and Foreign Media Sources, Author’s Analysis

The next section elaborates sequentially on the Type 054A’s cost structure, with the areas that contribute the most to final ship cost addressed first.

Electronics: $102 million, 29 percent. Chinese military-grade electronics makers disclose little or no information on the unit costs of systems they produce for the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). Moreover, the PLA does not publish detailed budgets such as those commonplace in US DoD. As such, this analysis uses a valuation by analogy approach to estimate the likely cost of the ship’s main electronics systems. The ship’s ZKJ-4B/6 combat data system is said to be based on Thompson CSF’s Tavitac. The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapons Systems, 1997-1998 estimated that the Tavitac accounted for less than 5 percent of the final cost of the French Lafayette frigate, which based on the US$466 million original unit cost of the six Lafayette-class frigates (“
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”) purchased by Taiwan in 1992, suggests Tavitac costs approximately US$20 million. Given the systems’ stated similarity, it is reasonable to value the ZKJ-4B/6 at US$20 million per unit.

The Type 382 3D search radar likely costs approximately $15 million per unit based on the price of the AMD radar system Saab
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for its Canberra-class LHD and the fact that Chinese radar makers likely have not yet attained the experience and efficiency level of Saab’s production process. The Type 054A’s sonar suite likely costs around $20 million, based on the
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of the Royal Navy’s Sonar 2087 and the procurement requirements the U.S. Navy used in 2005 when specifying the characteristics of a new towed sonar array. Finally, the author estimates that the Type 054A’s machinery control system costs $15 million, based on the fact that
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has contracted to supply the much larger LHA-7 amphibious assault ship’s machinery control system at a cost of $50.6 million. The author acknowledges that shipboard electronics costs may in fact be lower, although no data presently known to him supports a lower cost.

Weapons: $84 million, 24 percent. The most expensive part of the Type 054A’s weapons suite is likely the vertical launching system cells. An 8-cell module from the US
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– the most widely used in the world – costs around $15 million. The Type 054A has 32 total VLS cells and the author discounts the 8-cell module cost to $10 million, making the system cost an estimated $40 million. The second most expensive component of the Type 054A’s armament are its two Type 730 close in weapon systems (“CIWS”), which likely cost around $11 million for both. The U.S. Navy’s Phalanx Block 1B CIWS
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$5.6 million per unit, and the author believes this is a reasonable proxy for the Type 730 CIWS cost because although the Chinese gun is a larger caliber and the system is physically larger, the assembly and materials costs are likely substantially lower.

Labor: $75 million, 22 percent. While data is somewhat scarce, building and commissioning a frigate-sized warship of between 3,000 and 4,000 tons displacement appears to require between 2.5 million man hours (U.S. FFG-7) and 10.8 million man hours (India Godavari-class) of
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. The author estimates that at present, Chinese military shipyards, which can afford a higher degree of labor intensity than Western yards due to a large labor force, but which are also almost certainly substantially more efficient than Indian yards, require around 3.2 million man hours to build and commission a Type 054A frigate. Chinese yards’ average labor cost is based on the 2013 labor expenditures of Jiangsu Rongsheng, a top private shipbuilder, which are then increased by 25 percent to reflect the premium paid for special skill sets required for shipbuilding work done to naval specifications.

Hull and equipment: $45 million, 13 percent. This cost estimate is based on the fact that around
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of the light ship weight of surface combatants such as the Type 054A typically consists of metals – primarily steel, along with lesser quantities of high-grade alloys and wiring and pipes. The author then multiplied the 1,200 metric tons of steel likely required for a ship the size of the Type 054A by an average cost of $2,000/metric tons for high quality steel such as that used in warships. The remainder of the cost comes from composite materials and radar absorbent materials, whose cost data was obtained from similar items sold on Alibaba.com and from the cost of applying radar absorbent coatings to frigate-sized U.S. warships, as disclosed by the Chicago Tribune (admittedly a bit dated as it is 1993-vintage). Cost data for paint, piping, pumps, valves, and wiring also come from similar Chinese-made items advertised for sale on Alibaba.com as well as the London Metals Exchange spot price for copper, the underlying component of wiring, and likely at least part of the pipe alloys.

Propulsion: $32 million, 9 percent. The biggest share of the Type 054A’s propulsion costs come from its four Pielstick/Shaanxi PA6 diesel engines. At least one
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offers Pielstick engines for sale at between $1and $10 million apiece. This estimate uses the mid-range price of $5 million per engine to reflect the size of the engine and the premium quality needed for a military application. The balance of the estimated cost reflects the gearbox, drive shafts, steering gear, and props.

Miscellaneous costs: $10 million, 3 percent. This category is a “catchall” that helps the overall estimate account for bits and pieces that might have been overlooked in the process of estimating each ship segment’s cost.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
[Continue previous article]


Conclusion and Strategic Implications


The $348 million unit cost estimate dovetails reasonably well with the price at which China offered Type 054 frigates to Thailand in early 2013. Thailand’s Navy sought to spend $1 billion on new frigates and China reportedly offered three Type 054s at that price. China’s offer of ships at an effective price of $333 million each suggests that with higher international-level profit margins built in, the actual delivered ship cost is likely between $350 million and $375 million per vessel. In addition, the imported ships would likely cost less to build given that they are not as comprehensively capable as the Type 054As delivered to the PLAN.

If the Type 054A’s actual construction cost falls into this range, and the shipbuilders are allowed a five percent “profit” margin for ship deliveries to the PLAN, the delivered ship price would be $365 million. In procurement terms, this would offer the PLAN a significant value relative to the cost of foreign-sourced vessels. For instance, French shipbuilder DCNS has sold a
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class frigate to Morocco for $676 million and Germany’s first four
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are priced at $740 million apiece.

Military hardware spending always incurs an opportunity cost, since even a large and growing economy like China’s still has a finite amount of resources that can realistically be devoted to military expenditures. To put the cost of purchasing one Type 054A at $365 million into perspective, consider that the ship uses funds equal to each of the following alternative expenditures, all of which are in demand in various branches of the PLA:

  • Thirteen
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    fighter aircraft.
  • Ten
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    strike fighters.
  • 177.5 million
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    of jet fuel for training – enough fuel to allow each of China’s 97 SU-30 fighters to be
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    with fuel 600 times apiece.
  • The annual
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    of nearly 64,000 junior PLA officers.

A navy ultimately sails on the strength of the national treasury. In that respect, the PLAN increasingly gets a significant “bang for its buck” with ship acquisition costs that are much lower than those of other major Asia-Pacific naval powers. The analytical community now has the opportunity to create a unique warship cost dataset that will unlock powerful new avenues of inquiry into China’s naval modernization and defense spending.

Gabe Collins is the co-founder of China SignPost and a former commodity investment analyst and research fellow in the US Naval War College’s Maritime Studies Institute.

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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
MirageIII over on CDF has a good reply over the attempt to quantify 054A's cost

but "Gabe Collins is the co-founder of China SignPost and a former commodity investment analyst " really says it all, his lack of knowledge on shipbuilding is at time painfully obvious

ROC Lafayette cost he uses as baseline specifically excludes armaments so is useless for his extrapolation of combat system purpose (relationship of present Chinese CDS with Tavitac is also questionable). rest of electronics costs are wishful thinking at best. Phalanx instead of Goalkeeper for Type 730 cost is questionable.

Labour cost calc is pure
smokin.gif
, using manhour for a Indian modified leander and US FFG-7 as proxy for 054. The former is a very different steam powered vessel build in very inefficient yards,while the Perry class is specifically designed as a cheap easy to assemble convoy escort. No mentioning is made of the different methods of overhead treatment between commercial and state run shipyard. While the 25% premium for military construction is another wild a@@ guess that may or may not apply depending on organization of specific yard in question.

List goes on for other parts of his "analysis" ironically if i were to guess the "hull and equipment" section may be an underestimate again going back to his methodology.

Most importantly Collins ignores the effect of serial production on cost, the leadship of any particular type of vessel is usually the most expansive with each subsequent ships costing less as production process is optimized and efficiency increased. This applies to all shipyards even very inefficient ones, see US production of NSC for a partial illustration. I would bet $5 that last ship out of HD is alot cheaper compared with 1st. If would be a serious
roflmao.gif
if ones tries to use 24*$350mil per ship to calc cost of 054a fleet.

TLDR; wall street stock valuation type analysis extrapolated to warship construction, without nearly enough knowledge on subject at hand to make calculations worthwhile. End result make not be very far off but for wrong reasons.
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
Their estimates are likely too high by a factor of at least 2. Chinese labour and manu costs are nearly always far lower than in developed nations and costs one-fifth lower would not be an impossible guesstimate. Why that article used the cost basis from Bath or Newport, French and German resales, and DOD contractor prices, is beyond me.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Their estimates are likely too high by a factor of at least 2. Chinese labour and manu costs are nearly always far lower than in developed nations and costs one-fifth lower would not be an impossible guesstimate..
One fifth lower compared to US or western prices is 20% lower. That would end up being a Chinese cost of something like $500 million when compared to what a similar size and capability would cost in the west.

But in the above statement, you indicated 50% lower than what this estimated gave at $350 million, and I seriously doubt that is attainable.

The fact is, $350 million for a vessel the size and capability of the Type 054A is an extremely GOOD price. This man's estimate, as it is, is probably 35-40% cheaper than a comparable western design would cost to get the same size and capability.

A price of $175 million would...even in China...IMHO be completely unattainable.

My own estimate would be $240 million on the low end, and $360 million on the high. Likely price is probably somewhere around $300 million. And that would be a GREAT deal.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys, we have a Chinese Shipbuilding Industry Thread.

All of the OT posts (which have continued, despite everyone knowing they were OT) about Chinese worker salaries, have been moved to that thread.

Back on Topic.
 
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