052C/052D Class Destroyers

Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Blackstone said:
Pretty amazing modernization by PLAN, and I wonder how close the 052Ds are getting to the Arleigh Burkes.
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Well, I believe that therr electronics are not as strong as the overall AEGIS system because AEGIS has been around for decades and they ahve continually improved it...imprved things the PLAN is probably finding out about their own self-defense suite and will be improving themselves.

Just the same, I have to say what we can see and what I have read indicates that they have a very strong and capable radar/sensor/Electronic warfare suite.

They only carry 64 VLS tubes where the Bukre class carries 96 cells.

Also, the BUrkes carry two helos (I am talking about the Flight IIA and forward vessels) which is very good for ASW work.

ust the same compared to the historical position of the PLAN, the 52Cs and 52Ds are orders of magnitude better than what they used to have, and they are nearing the US capability.

The TYpe 55 will be a similar comparison to the Tico cruisers...except they will be closer in total VKLS cells and I believe ill be capable of carrying two helos each.

So the PLAN continues to improve.

What the US has is many decades of integraating and working and planning their various [platforms together DDGS, CGs, SSN,s carrier, etc. Those decades and the many things learned and weaknesses overcome as a result of that experience would be telling.

The PLAN has the new equipment, now they need to spend years integrating them to work togwther forcefully as a team.

The US does this with its allies as well...Korea, Japan, Australia, Great Britan, France, Italy, etc., etc. which makes them all very strong additions to the US force structure when they can.

The biggest area the PLAN needs to work n IMHO is:

Getting the much needed experience aand developing a strong, prfessional NCO cardre throughout the fleet to pass the info/knowledge on.

Improving the ASW capabilities of their helos and their surface fleet.

Much improving their SSNs. They are building new boats, but at a much slower rate, and I believe the US capability in that area would be very telling.

Either way though, the Chinese are showing that they have arrived in the blue water and that they have some very efective new equipment and vessels t announce that arrivaal.

It has been a phenomenal growth...and it continues.
 
I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I think one of the more important questions is not to ask whether the 052D has achieved an Aegis-like level of capability but to ask whether the PLAN has achieved a CEC-like level of networked information and decision-making capability. This IMO is the greater determinant of PLAN capability than an individual ship's degree of combat capability compared to a Burke or a Tico.
 
FORBIN

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Jeff Head said:
Well, I believe that therr electronics are not as strong as the overall AEGIS system because AEGIS has been around for decades and they ahve continually improved it...imprved things the PLAN is probably finding out about their own self-defense suite and will be improving themselves.

Just the same, I have to say what we can see and what I have read indicates that they have a very strong and capable radar/sensor/Electronic warfare suite.

They only carry 64 VLS tubes where the Bukre class carries 96 cells.

Also, the BUrkes carry two helos (I am talking about the Flight IIA and forward vessels) which is very good for ASW work.

ust the same compared to the historical position of the PLAN, the 52Cs and 52Ds are orders of magnitude better than what they used to have, and they are nearing the US capability.

The TYpe 55 will be a similar comparison to the Tico cruisers...except they will be closer in total VKLS cells and I believe ill be capable of carrying two helos each.

So the PLAN continues to improve.

What the US has is many decades of integraating and working and planning their various [platforms together DDGS, CGs, SSN,s carrier, etc. Those decades and the many things learned and weaknesses overcome as a result of that experience would be telling.

The PLAN has the new equipment, now they need to spend years integrating them to work togwther forcefully as a team.

The US does this with its allies as well...Korea, Japan, Australia, Great Britan, France, Italy, etc., etc. which makes them all very strong additions to the US force structure when they can.

The biggest area the PLAN needs to work n IMHO is:

Getting the much needed experience aand developing a strong, prfessional NCO cardre throughout the fleet to pass the info/knowledge on.

Improving the ASW capabilities of their helos and their surface fleet.

Much improving their SSNs. They are building new boats, but at a much slower rate, and I believe the US capability in that area would be very telling.

Either way though, the Chinese are showing that they have arrived in the blue water and that they have some very efective new equipment and vessels t announce that arrivaal.

It has been a phenomenal growth...and it continues.
Click to expand...
Agree and since 10 years with first 052C especialy China have do good surface combattants better than Submarines especialy nuclears more late for these types.

Blackstone said:
Pretty amazing modernization by PLAN, and I wonder how close the 052Ds are getting to the Arleigh Burkes.
Click to expand...
Burke is a heavy DDG almost a CG foz size with 96 - 98 missiles so 1/3 more powerful and again more for ASW Burke Fl lI a with 2 MH-60R much more capable than Ka-28 and Z-9C
The AB Fl III going for be again better for AAW with her new very good radar.

For AAW in more since last year SM-6 is in service with an amazing range 300 - 400 km also ABM soon, AShM not build for it less capable than a true AShM but remains usefull.

Good report for capacities look comments
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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
Either way though, the Chinese are showing that they have arrived in the blue water and that they have some very efective new equipment and vessels t announce that arrivaal.

It has been a phenomenal growth...and it continues.
Click to expand...
Lots of evidence on PLAN modernization, training, and growth, but what do you mean when you say PLAN has arrived in blue water? If it's sustained low-intensity operations far from home, like Gulf of Aden anti-piracy missions, then yes. But, if it's sustaining high-intensity operations outside the first island chain, then publicly available information say PLAN currently isn't capable of it.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Blackstone said:
Lots of evidence on PLAN modernization, training, and growth, but what do you mean when you say PLAN has arrived in blue water? If it's sustained low-intensity operations far from home, like Gulf of Aden anti-piracy missions, then yes. But, if it's sustaining high-intensity operations outside the first island chain, then publicly available information say PLAN currently isn't capable of it.
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It means they have arrived in the Blue Water with significant Task Forces and assets.

They nolw have equipment and assets that they can work up into more and more sustainable and higher and higher intensity over time.

They never had this before. Now they do.

And it bears the US and its allies recognizing it. The Chinese are not doing it for the fun of it. Clearly they believe that their important national interests are building to the point, in and across the blue waters, where they have to have large forces available and prepared and capable of defending those interests and pointedly doing so so that other potential adversaries see and recognize it.

This is going to be a growing trend into the future.

The US and her allies must come to terms with it. Hopefully in a way where the Chinese recognize the US interests and do not seek to challenge them, while at the same time the US and China both avoid conflict.

My own hope is that as China grows and its people grow into more and more middle to upper class financial status and capabilities, that there will be growth in the Chinese people's personal liberties and a more open society, that moves the US and China toward more friendly and mutual improvements in relationships. It will take both nations working together to make that possible...but that is what I hope for.

At the same time, the US needs from its perspective to ensure that it does not relinquish any technological, qualitative, and other leads it has from my perspective s an American,..while at the same time not seeking to push the Chinese or flaunt those leadership positions,
 
K

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
No offence jeff but I don't think personal liberties and open society can help in this case. We've long past the point where we take sides by ideology ,or more broadly ,way of life.
Also on the receiving end I can tell you this "it's better for them to live in our way" or "everything would be ok if they are like us" mindset is one of top reason for many people here to loathe American and European. It's like a white man tell black people "there wouldn't be any racial problem if you were white".

I know you have good intention saying that. I've met a lot of kind honest people during my stay in US and europe and sadly many of them have this type of mindset which is quite arrogant and sometimes offensive on our view. It's really not their fault but this is not helping.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
Jeff Head said:
It means they have arrived in the Blue Water with significant Task Forces and assets.

They nolw have equipment and assets that they can work up into more and more sustainable and higher and higher intensity over time.

They never had this before. Now they do.

And it bears the US and its allies recognizing it. The Chinese are not doing it for the fun of it. Clearly they believe that their important national interests are building to the point, in and across the blue waters, where they have to have large forces available and prepared and capable of defending those interests and pointedly doing so so that other potential adversaries see and recognize it.

This is going to be a growing trend into the future.

The US and her allies must come to terms with it. Hopefully in a way where the Chinese recognize the US interests and do not seek to challenge them, while at the same time the US and China both avoid conflict.

My own hope is that as China grows and its people grow into more and more middle to upper class financial status and capabilities, that there will be growth in the Chinese people's personal liberties and a more open society, that moves the US and China toward more friendly and mutual improvements in relationships. It will take both nations working together to make that possible...but that is what I hope for.

At the same time, the US needs from its perspective to ensure that it does not relinquish any technological, qualitative, and other leads it has from my perspective s an American,..while at the same time not seeking to push the Chinese or flaunt those leadership positions,
Click to expand...

I share the sentiment for friendly relations between the US and China, and as an American I certainly prefer that the US maintain its lead in many areas and catch up on many others. However those must be subject to everyone handling their business as fairly and upstandingly as possible, including nobody appointing themselves to mind and impose on other people's business which the US and other current and former colonial powers tend to do the most of.
 
A

abc123

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sorry Jeff, I don't think that China being more democratic and open will lead tolessening conflicts between China and the USA. Actually, I think just the opposite. More democraftic China will mean more populist China. And the sad fact is, China and USA have a deep conflict of interests. China. Any China, democratic of communist of KMT China ( except China that will accept second rate position in it's own region and give up parts of their own territory- and that's not goeing to happen ). There can't be two sheriffs in the town, at least in East Asia. ;)
 
vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
I too hope that the US and China become allies and share common interests. Believe me, as a Chinese American, it is in my personal interests that China and the US are on best terms with each other.

With that said, I don't think the US and China will be allies, ever. At least not in the near future. Why? Like abc123 said elegantly above, "There can't be two sheriffs in town". The US has so much interests in East Asia, which happens to be China's backyard. To avoid conflict, we got 3 options: 1) China moves out of Asia (and wanders in the desert for 40 years?); 2) China backs down and submits to the US; 3) the US backs down.

Option 1 won't work, assuming Lex Luthor doesn't find enough Kryptonite and create new land out of the ocean. Even then, there would be no guarantee that majority of Chinese will want to move. Keep in mind that we are under the assumption that China will be a democratic society by then. My experience is that no one wants to move, especially when that piece of land has been your home for 5000 years...

Option 2 might work if China is still an authoritarian government, where a few elites decide the fate of the entire nation. In a democratic society, I can't see how majority of the Chinese people would be willing to submit to anyone else in their own backyard. It would be suicidal for any Chinese government domestically. Any democratically elected Chinese leader who does such thing will be impeached and kicked out of office immediately. Just imagine what would happen to a US president who submits to Mexico...

Option 3? This option seems to be the least damaging for both nations. Most Americans don't even care about Asia (heck, many Americans don't even know where Asia is). However, I don't see how and why the US would willingly back down and play second fiddle in East Asia without a fight. The US has so much interests in Asia that it would be unimaginable to back out and give them up...

Thus, the US and China are bound to lock horns in the near future. My only hope is that the horn-locking stays in "strategic partner / competitor" stage.
 
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