PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

Discussion in 'Navy' started by crobato, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. crobato
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    crobato Colonel
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    The sequel.

    Anyway to start with, I have some thoughts.

    1. Some thought about the stationing of subs in Sanya, Hainan. Subs tend to be designed by countries that are in colder climates, hence colder waters. Thus how they deal with cooling, to their sonar issues, have a tendency to be biased towards cold waters. When it comes to warm waters, or tropical conditions, warm waters can expose a new bag of issues to submarines whose design did not foresee warm water effects.

    In China's case, their SSKs, the Song and the Yuan, appeared designed and built by shipyards that are more to the south or middle of China, and therefore faces a more moderate to semi-tropical environment. These subs probably have greater consideration to tropical climates, hence they were the first to be stationed to the south.

    But Huludao is a different case being far up north. This is a place that is cold enough to have snowstorms and ice forming in the water. As China's nuclear subs are born there, their cooling requirements among other things may have been oriented at first to that region. Hence the stationing of the Hans and Xia to the North Sea Fleet, and so was the early 093 and 094.

    But the appearance of the improved Han (091G), the 093 and 094 as far south as Sanya, Hainan indicates tropicalization measures and testing are being imposed on the subs, to turn them from "cold water" to "all water" subs.

    2. The second issue that I like to raise, and its been in my mind for some time now, is the so called "smooth look" that has been with some European subs, particularly German and Swedish. This look is one with straight upper deck and angled upper sides of the body. The British have also decided to run this look too, and lately the Japanese are converts to this approach, based on the look of the Soryu class sub.

    Is this design really better? Some of the most quietest subs in the world actually never chose to have this approach, and they include the Seawolf, Virginia and the French Scorpene class. These last three subs still favor the rounded body look that was pioneered long ago by the Albacore.

    So what is the theory behind this angled smooth look that the Germans and Swedish came up with? If I think about it, its not really hydrodynamics. Submarine hydrodynamic design reached a perfect stage when the Albacore came out back in the fifties, and that sub actually has a speed record faster than nuclear subs even though it only had diesels. The optimal design for speed, as that sub showed, is one based on the fish it was named for.

    The straight upper deck and angled sides of the German and Swedish subs in a sense is not actually hydrodynamic but contrary to it, its not really streamlined. So I have another theory as the angled sides and straight look reminded me of something else, something you see in the latest fighters and surface ships---stealth.

    Having straight lines and angled sides are meant to minimize reflection from going into different directions. Instead, these reflections are aimed into as few directions as possible. The less directions the reflections are scattered, the better.

    If this principle can work with radar, it can work on sonar.

    This does not mean the sub is going to be quiet. This design has nothing to do with quietness or passive stealth. Rather, it is meant to counter active sonar, reducing the range of detection and echoes from a hunting ping. Active sonar is actually the last and best resort to defeat a quiet SSK, because no matter how quiet you are, you won't escape your own reflections. Usually, subs have adopted using all sorts of coatings and tiles to help counter active sonar. However, we all know even from aircraft to ships, that designing to counter reflections from the start, is a superior method over applied methods such as coatings like RAM and so on.

    The con to this is that the sub may not be as hydrodynamically efficient or even as quiet once the speed picks up. This however can be empirically adjusted and fine tuned through wind tunnel and water tank testing. For SSKs running at slow speeds it probably is a better judgement call, to have more active sonar stealth over hydrodynamic efficiency at higher speeds.

    The US, Russian, French and it seems even to the Chinese, that their emphasis is speed and to reduce flow noise for burst, cruise or transit speeds, and for tactical speeds. It may seem counter intuitive to some, but you can actually reduce drag and noise through a more "disturbed" rather than a clean look towards the middle to end of the body. This is similar to the nipples in a golf ball. One way to achieve this is to strategically design and position your limber holes and other small protrusions, and you can empirically determine this by wind tunnel and water tank testing. This can explain the look and adjustments I've seen with many subs on their limber hole patterns.

    My theory goes, that the "rounded" subs are probably hydrodynamically quieter than the "angled" subs at speed, not counting other noise producing factors like powerplant, but once the subs go actively pinging, the rounded subs would be in a disadvantage over the angled subs.

    The question now remains what is the trend for future PLAN submarines? Will they still go after hydrodynamic efficiency as the Yuan and Shangs still do? Or like those certain models show, a shift towards being able to counter active sonar as well?

    3. The third thing I like to bring out are the Red and Blue Flag exercises. Certainly the J-10 vs. J-11 encounters are probably well known among the Chinese watchers now. Through these exercises, you can actually shape policy.

    But does the PLAN's ship and sub policy changed by similar exercises? Of course we will never know the results of sub vs. sub encounters within the PLAN, e.g. Yuan vs. Shang, Song vs. Kilo, PLAN SSKs vs. PLAN SSNs, etc,. Hypothetically, if you are in the PLAN's place, and you conduct such exercises, will the results of these exercises help shape future policy and purchasing plans? One thing I noticed that in China, you don't stick completely to the long term plans but make adjustments along the way, and must be flexible even to change the long term plans if they were shown to be wrong or obsolete. Its not hard to imagine that Shangs and Improved Hans working as Blue forces, with Jins or the improved Xia thrown in as targets or hunters, against Songs, Yuans, Kilos and Mings acting as Red forces.
     
    #1 crobato, Jan 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2014
  2. jackbh
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    jackbh Junior Member

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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    I have never heard and imagined such thing as sub designed in cold water is not adaptable in tropical water. This is for me like saying if you designed a car in Sweden where it's cold then the car will not run in Hawaii where it's warm. This is just hard to imagine.

    Look at all the volvos and Saabs running around in hot and warm weather.
     
  3. crobato
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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    You have to do modifications to adapt to warm water, particularly in the way you provide cooling for the engine and the crew. As a matter of fact, European cars for a while had inadequate air conditioning---they were never known for the quality of their climate control, as well as the propensity to overheat in the traffic jam of a city in the tropical regions. That was a long ago then, today, all cars are being tested in every possible environment. That's one reason why BMW for example, sends prototypes to Death Valley in the USA.
     
  4. crobato
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    crobato Colonel
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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    I'm still trying to verify if this pic is Chinese or not.
     

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  5. Norfolk
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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    WOW, crobato.:eek::D Great pic, where did you find this? Could this be of the new sub base tunnelled into Hainan Island?
     
  6. beijingcar
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    beijingcar New Member

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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    that picture is Chinese allright, I saw it about 3 years ago and saved on my hard-drive on my old computer, then the HD crashed, picture was lost. As I remember, it was the only official release of the underground picture of the PLAN TsingTao Sub base. I believe the picture was taken maybe 10 years ago( or could be even older), as the Han 091 was not yet being modernized(for the second and last time). Maybe #403?
     
  7. maozedong
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    maozedong Banned Idiot

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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    yes,I saw it in chinese sit last year,I believe that this is an old Han-class submarines, can see the red banners affixed to the sail,
    It is evident that the Chinese characteristics, I have not Favourites it because I like new things. I have read some magazines, Huludao has such base tunnel.
    I agree with Beijingcar,about 10 year ago,China's official release of some old photographs, read to the Chinese people manufacture of a nuclear submarine of arduous process.
     
  8. Schumacher
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    Schumacher Senior Member

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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    Looks like the mainstream press finally caught on to this pic of a new Yuan, the HK newspaper below is quoting French report.
    As usual, posters on Sinodefence got there earlier. I wonder if the press will acknowledge if they really got it from our site here. :)

    http://www.takungpao.com/news/08/01/28/ZM-857242.htm
     
  9. crobato
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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    This is the French article, that was translated to Chinese, then translated to English using Google, so it's not a good translation at this point, but you can still pick out a thing here and there. Note the new Yuan might be called 039B. The article is also saying the same thing I said in the other thread, that the Song and the Yuans are double hulled, and that the two subs may be sharing the same inner pressure hull, which contains the core of the submarine, crew, controls, engine and the like, differing in the outer thin hydrodynamic hull.



    France "submarine portal," said, this is not very clear photographed is not yet launched a new version of the 039 submarine

    Global Network: France "submarine portal" recently published article, saying through an appearance comparison found the latest model Chinese submarine.

    The article said that a new Chinese submarine photos recently appeared on the Internet, the photos are not located in close-range focus has been recognized as yuan level (A-039) submarines, but slightly distant floating dock on the submarine. It is neither the 039 nor the 039 Type A, in other words, this is not very clear photographed is not yet launched a new version of the 039 submarines.

    This submarine and the two former known version of the submarine conning tower is the main difference between the horizontal position. China seems to be drawing people to do some modifications to the installation of some new things. In fact, the top shell to amend section than to increase much easier. This approach is used in the 093 submarine-based ballistic missile submarine construction of the 094 projects, 094 in the 093 is on the increase for a cabin with no re-design hull shape. Found a photo of the Russian submarine experts made the following comments:

    It seems that Shell made changes in fluid mechanics, slightly widened and lengthened shell, which may be altered to accommodate the new power system. Perhaps China in the Yuan class in the installation of the first set of Air independent propulsion (AIP) system, there are some problems at the beginning, the concept of change may reflect an evolution. If they changed the dynamic system, it may be in the boat in the shell have to do some modifications, which means that the submarine may have a new design. Song and Yuan-class submarines are in the 039, because they are within the same shell.

    China submarine with dual-shell structure, and Song (039) and the Yuan class (A-039) within the shell is very similar to, if there is no shipboard equipment, and then only through the shell shape to distinguish between them. In fact, the Song (039) and meta-level (039-A) and traditional submarines, the main difference lies in the case of underwater navigation resistance decreased slightly. In the use of new technologies need to install, it can only change the shell structure, and ensure that some of the inner shell is no longer reliable design changes.

    In the absence of multi-angle photos circumstances, it is difficult to determine the submarine the size and power. "Defence discussions" web site professionals may believe that the new submarine in the Air independent propulsion (AIP) systems have some improvements. He stressed that the change in the top of the hull of the ship than to change the balance of more meaningful.

    This picture is not in the submarine B-039, is still too early to say, but is set off in Wuhan is the construction of the 039 submarine like a new version.
     
  10. evereachyu
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    evereachyu Banned Idiot

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    Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

    This is an aged photo. It was posted on one of the Chinese magezines, might be 《舰船知识》。
     
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