PLAN Torpedos

Discussion in 'Navy' started by TorpHistorian, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. bd popeye
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    bd popeye The Last Jedi
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    Red___Sword, sindefence website was set up as an accurate fact page for the PLA forces. The person that established that site, Dongfeng, is the head administrator of that site. He's also an administrator of this site. He's not visited here since 09-27-2009. Nor have there been any updates of sinodefence in sometime.

    That's one way to look at the situation.

    No one is over at sinodefence thinking right now. But here at sinodefenceforum we intelligently discuss military matters.
     
  2. Red___Sword
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    Red___Sword Junior Member

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    Thanks a lot. I don't suppose it is proper to ask (so feel free to not responding) how a website survive when no one actually administrating it?

    With regard to the topic, I have no problem for Martian being a typical good source of pretty much everything with supporting prooves...

    It's just, when at this particular time, Martian cited his 4th citation from sinodefence article - which more or less turns out sinodefence website articles are sourcing from we the good SDF itself - at this particular time, it's like "citing yourself" as a proof.

    And I do interested to see good people testify whether there is any "inspiration" of development between the US and Russian 533 torpedo at first place or not. - It is a good way of approach at least.
     
  3. i.e.
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    i.e. Senior Member

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    Whaaaa..... the....

    Am I seeing ghosts?

    who updated this one?

    Varyag Aircraft Carrier - SinoDefence.com
     
  4. delft
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    delft Brigadier

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    Re: Jane's alludes to Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo as reverse-engineered from U.S. Mark 4

    There were/are these other calibers, but they accounted for a very small proportion of launch tubes and torpedoes built.
     
  5. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Yu-6 is the fruition of Russian-Chinese torpedo cooperation

    Subject of discussion:
    What technologies have been used for Yu-6 torpedo's development - American or Russian?

    On the one hand there are real facts:
    - Wide military-technical cooperation between China and Russia;
    - Russian-Chinese 211TT1 torpedo’s contract 1990-2002;
    - Design of Russian export torpedoes TT-1 and UGST.

    On the other hand:
    - Internet legend about Chinese fishermen;
    - External similarity between Yu-6 and Mk 48.

    About citations:
    1. Actually the Chinese Yu-6 torpedo’s efforts were not reverse-engineering. Author of Wiki has thought up it. There was assimilation and advancing of the Russian torpedo technologies.
    Chinese fisher’s Mk 48 is a myth. But the contract on 211TT1 torpedo is a reality.

    2. Otto fuel has American origin. However it use all over the world for a long time. In China since 1980th when USA have sold Mk 46 license. In Russia since 1970th when «Cuban fishermen» have caught Mk 46.
    Russian Otto fuel is used on torpedoes TT-1,-3,-4,-5; MTT, MPT, DST and new"Fizik-1".

    3. In field of Russian and Chinese weapon Jane’s never was authoritative for naval experts.

    4. First step in a correct direction. When you will understand that any fisher’s Mk 48 was not, you will easily find the Russian technologies in most other systems of Yu-6 torpedo.
     
  6. Martian
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    Martian Senior Member

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    Not only Yu-6, but Yu-5 was reverse-engineered/derived from U.S. torpedo technology

    I am getting tired of your rhetoric. I have provided four citations from reputable sources and you have provided none. This is my last post on this matter.

    Not only was the Yu-6 reverse-engineered from a Mark 48 torpedo, the Yu-5 was reverse-engineered/derived from an U.S. Mark 46 torpedo. Do you detect a pattern here?

    It is reasonable to believe the Chinese used their experience from the licensed assembly of the Mark 46 torpedo to help them reverse-engineer it and create the Yu-5 torpedo. Having gained experience in reverse-engineering the Mark 46 torpedo, the Chinese embarked on reverse-engineering the U.S. Mark 48 torpedo to create the Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo.

    By the way, I don't really care whether China's Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo technology is reverse-engineered from a particular country or not. However, it is wrong to claim a lineage from Russian technology when the facts are otherwise. You can claim Russian lineage on some Chinese weapons (e.g. MLRS), but not the Yu-6 torpedo.

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    Yu-5 torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Yu-5 (鱼-5) torpedo is the first wire-guided torpedo developed by China. It is an ASW torpedo designed for conventional diesel-electric submarines.[1] It is often erroneously referred as the Chinese copy of Soviet TEST-71 torpedo, which is completely wrong because the Soviet torpedo was developed in 1971 and its successor TEST-71MKE was developed in 1977, at the worst time of Sino-Soviet split. With Yu-5 entering Chinese service in 1989, it was simply impossible to acquire any technologies of Soviet TEST-71 torpedo, which was not purchased by China until 1993, four years after the Yu-5 torpedo had already entered service.[citation needed]

    China had begun to explore the wire guidance technology for torpedoes in the early 1960’s but due to the political turmoil in China, the research stopped like many other Chinese research programs. With the progress of Yu-3 torpedo developmental program, Chinese military realized that an ASW torpedo was needed for its conventional diesel-electric submarine fleet in addition to the ASuW torpedo under development (Yu-4 torpedo). As a result, Yu-5 torpedo was developed, and it was decided to utilize the wire guidance technology.

    The development of Yu-5 torpedo begun around the same time of Yu-4 torpedo in the early 1970’s, but due to the backward of the Chinese technological and industrial base, the initial tests of wire guidance was carried out by using steel wire instead of copper wire, just like when it was done more than a decade ago in the late 1950’s. The propulsion development of Yu-5 torpedo benefited greatly from the US Mark 46 torpedo recovered by the Chinese fishermen for the Otto fuel II research and then some technological supports for license production of Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedo in China of the 1985 deal signed between two countries. Other unconfirmed reports have claimed that during the development of Yu-5 torpedo, advanced American and Japanese commercial off-the-shelf technologies at the time were used, and incorporating these advanced commercial technologies was part of the reason of the prolonged development, which lasted almost two decades. In fact, Yu-5 torpedo program started around the same time with Yu-4 torpedo program but the latter was completed earlier. Another reason for the prolonged development was the Yu-5 was used as a test vehicle for newer technologies for later torpedoes such as the Yu-6 torpedo, for example, optical fiber wire guidance had been tested on Yu-5 torpedo since 1986 (However, although the tests were considered somewhat satisfactory, it was not adopted for Yu-5 torpedo, which used the traditional copper wire). The Yu-5 torpedo was finally accepted into the service in 1989 and the series production begun the next year in 1990. The torpedo is initially guided by wire guidance for most of the time, and at the final stage, the guidance is changed to active / passive acoustic homing guidance,and the active / passive acoustic homing guidance would also automatically kicks in when the wire is accidentally severed before the final stage."

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-7_torpedo

    "According to official information released by the Chinese government, several US Mark 46 torpedoes had been recovered by Chinese fishermen in the 1970s and 1980s, with the most advanced version the Mk 46 Mod. 1 Block 2 torpedo recovered in October, 1978 from South China Sea. Decision was given to reverse engineer the American torpedo under the name “Project 109” to produce the badly needed ASW light torpedo for the Chinese military. 705th Institute (also called Xi'an Precision Machinery Research Institute, 西安精密机械研究所) and Northwestern Polytechnical University were tasked with being the research team, while the No. 872 Factory and No. 874 Factory were assigned as the production facility. Full scale development started in 1984, with over 90 enterprises in the country involved in assisting the four major enterprises to develop the torpedo. 705th Institute (also known as Xi'an Precision Machinery Research Institute, 西安精密机械研究所) was responsible for the shallow water control systems of the torpedo and Northwestern Polytechnical University was responsible for the deep water control systems of the torpedo. The Yu-7 torpedo is composed of over 5,000 parts and 4,500 instruments, while it had over 80,000 blueprints and its technical documents totaled over 100,000 pages. The first two prototype torpedoes were assembled in No. 874 Factory in December 1984 and were tested in the 750 Testing Range (750试验场) in Kunming in December 1985. By 1989 the Yu-7 torpedo had successfully undertaken 68 launches in four separate sea trials.

    In the meantime, the development of Yu-7 torpedo obtained a great boost from USA technical support in 1985, when China signed a US$ 8 million deal with USA in purchasing Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedoes with technological support for licensed assembly. The Bush Administration had faced significant criticism from Congress and many human rights activist groups for delivering the last batch of Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedo to China after the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, but the Bush Administration countered that the delivery was the completion of a previous deal made prior to the crackdown. Another great benefit to the Yu-7 torpedo program was the Chinese purchase of 40 or so Italian Alenia A244-S light ASW torpedoes in 1987, with the 705th Institute assigned to reverse engineer this torpedo as well. The incorporation of technologies of the Italian Alenia A244-S light ASW torpedo caused design changes and thus delayed the schedule, but according the western sources such as Jane's Information Group, the biggest factor that caused the delay in the schedule was the difficulties encountered in converting the British system to the metric system and American Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers standards to international standards. The Yu-7 torpedo finally received certification in 1994 and went into full production in the late 1990s."
     
    #26 Martian, Jul 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  7. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Re: Not only Yu-6, but Yu-5 was reverse-engineered/derived from U.S. torpedo technolo

    Wiki, Wiki, Wiki …
    You want to drag all Wikipedia to the forum?
    Yours «reputable sources» are mainly gossips from Wiki.

    Main your thesis about presence Мк 48 torpedo in China is not truth.
    Therefore theory that Yu-6 is reverse-engineered copy of Мк-48 is no more than a tale. Why you assert it?

    The information about Russian-Chinese torpedo cooperation are placed in dependable books issued by Russian corporations, for example
    1. ЦНИИ "Гидроприбор" и его люди за 60 лет, СПб, "Гуманитарная академия", 2003.
    2. Научно-исследовательский институт морской теплотехники. 60 лет разработок торпедного оружия. – СПб.: ОАО «НИИ мортеплотехники», 2008.

    If you know Russian you can read they. If no – read some citations in my posts at the forum.
    And I hoped that me will thank for the new information;)
    .
    .
     
    #27 TorpHistorian, Jul 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  8. bd popeye
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    bd popeye The Last Jedi
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    When did that happen?? Maybe the site will come back to life!!!

    Who updated it? Probably DongFeng or his anonymous partner.
     
  9. Martian
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    Martian Senior Member

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    Facts in Wikipedia article on China's Yu-5 and U.S. Mark 46 torpedoes are verifiable

    If you are keeping count, this is my fifth source for citations (e.g. Wikipedia, Federation of American Scientists, Jane's, SinoDefence, and U.S. General Accounting Office).

    Let's try this again. U.S. sold Mark 46 torpedoes to China. China reverse-engineered the Mark 46 torpedo to create the Yu-5 torpedo. After gaining experience in reverse-engineering the Mark 46, China moved on to reverse-engineer the Mark 48 torpedo to create the Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo.

    MILITARY EXPORTS TO CHINA

    "GAO ON U.S. AND EURO MILITARY EXPORTS TO CHINA.

    GAO

    United States
    General Accounting Office

    Washington, D.C. 20548

    National Security and
    International Affairs Division

    B-279891

    June 16,1998

    The Honorable James Saxton
    Chairman, Joint Economic Committee
    United States Senate

    Dear Mr. Chairman:
    ...
    Page 5
    GAO/NSIAD-98-176 China
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    B-279891

    Government-to -Government Sales

    Department of Defense (DOD) under the Foreign Military Sales
    Program and (2) commercial exports licensed by the State
    Department, the majority of which were related to launches of
    U.S.-origin satellites in China. All were authorized under
    presidential waivers declaring the export to be in the national
    interest or were specifically exempted from the sanctions under
    the law.

    In December 1992, President Bush issued a waiver stating that it
    was in the national interest to allow the export of military
    equipment in order to close out four government-to-government
    military assistance programs that had been suspended by the
    sanctions.
    The waiver stated that these deliveries would not
    significantly contribute to China's military capability and
    closing these cases would improve the prospects for gaining
    further cooperation from China on nonproliferation issues. The
    total value of these exports, shown in table 2, was about $36.3
    million.

    Table 2: U.S. Government Exports of Munitions Items to China,
    1990-97

    Dollars in millions

    Program Purpose Deliveries
    ==================================================================
    Peace Pearl (F-8 Provide modern avionics for Two modified
    modernization) China's F-8 fighters F-8 fuselages,
    four avionics
    kits, and
    related equipment

    MK 46 Mod 2 Provide four torpedoes for Four torpedoes
    torpedoes test and evaluation spares and related
    purposes with ultimate test and maintenance
    deployment on Chinese equipment
    Navy ships and helicopters


    Artillery locating Provide four AN/TPQ-37 Two AN/TPQ-37 radars,
    radars Firefinder counter-artillery including parts and
    radar systems support equipment a

    Large-caliber Provide production Miscellaneous
    artillery plant capability for large-caliber components b
    artillery munitions
    ==================================================================

    a Two of these radars had been shipped before the sanctions.

    b Major equipment was shipped prior to the sanctions.

    Source: DOD.

    These programs were in various states of completion when U.S.
    sanctions were imposed. No new government-to-government
    agreements have been opened since 1990. No open or unfulfilled
    agreements are now pending between the U.S. government and China
    under the Foreign Military Sales Program. The equipment ending
    these programs was delivered to China

    Page 6
    GAO/NSIAD-98-176 China
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    B-279891

    between 1993 and 1995. It included four MK-46 Mod 2 torpedoes,
    spare parts, maintenance, and test equipment. China's Navy was
    to test the torpedoes for use on its ships and helicopters.
    "
     
    #29 Martian, Jul 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  10. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Re: Facts in Wikipedia article on China's Yu-7 and U.S. Mark 46 torpedoes are verifia

    All facts or some facts?

    Well, we shall discuss Wiki article about Yu-7.
    http: // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-7_torpedo
    1. Whether there are any facts about «… incorporating technologies of the A244-S torpedo»? Or it is conjectures of Wiki author?
    2. Where the link to source «… several US Mark 46 torpedoes had been recovered by Chinese fishermen in the 1970s and 1980s … ».
    3. Whence the link about «Full scale development started in 1984 …»?
    4. The phrase «… the shallow water control systems of the torpedo and … the deep water control systems of the torpedo» is completely not clear. About what it?

    The question demanding specification «… USA technical support in 1985». In what year the USA have started to render technical support? We look your citation «… between 1993 and 1995. It included four MK-46 Mod 2 torpedoes, spare parts, maintenance, and test equipment. China's Navy was to test the torpedoes for use on its ships and helicopters.»
    In view of last citation quite naturally «The Yu-7 torpedo finally received certification in 1994 and went into full production in the late 1990s».

    So, we have a mix of the real facts and conjectures of the Wiki author. Notice - no links. Can you consider that the author had access to closed Chinese (or American) sources and has not specified them because of they are classified? Or some "facts" are simply an Internet chinning?
     
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