PLAN Torpedos

Discussion in 'Navy' started by TorpHistorian, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Torpedo Yu-6 is a good example of Russian technologies in China.

    The torpedo is analog (not a clone or a copy) American Mk 48. Yu-6 is the fruition of Russian-Chinese cooperation. Gidropribor and Morteplotekhnika were participants from Russia in this business. Development contract (1990 - 2002) has come to the end with delivery of 211TT1 torpedo's compartments by Gidropribor.

    Thus, by 2002 Russian technologies and complete torpedo systems have been sold to China. And deliveries of technologies and test equipment proceeded next years.

    It has allowed to create Yu-6 torpedo by China.
     
    #1 TorpHistorian, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
  2. SinoSoldier
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    SinoSoldier Colonel

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    Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

    The Yu-6 is believed to have incorporated some components from a captured Mk 48 torpedo. Nowhere along its development was Russia mentioned.
     
    #2 SinoSoldier, Jul 2, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2011
  3. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Russian-Chinese military technical cooperation

    About captured torpedo Mk 48 it is no more than Internet chinning.

    The Chinese side does not inform nowhere on Russian-Chinese military technical cooperation. But it does not mean that there was no transfer of torpedo technologies. As well as transfers of other Russian technologies including aviation ones. Simply it is not subject to publicity in China.

    Some data on Russian-Chinese torpedo cooperation were in dependable Russian open sources. I have read them. If you read in Russian you can find data even in the Internet.
     
  4. SinoSoldier
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    SinoSoldier Colonel

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    Re: Russian-Chinese military technical cooperation

    So, you are saying that you ASSUMED that Russian technology was used in the development of a Yu-6 Chinese torpedo, because hey, it's the stererotype, right?

    Nice logic, buddy. Won't work here. :)
     
  5. Martian
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    Martian Senior Member

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    China's Yu-6 torpedo was reverse-engineered from U.S. Mark 48 heavyweight torpedo

    For those of you who think reverse-engineering is merely obtaining a sample of high-technology and pushing the "copy" button, think again. To produce the Yu-6 torpedo, a reverse-engineered Mark 48 torpedo, it took ten years and 18 patents for brilliant teams of Chinese scientists to reproduce the Mark 48 torpedo.

    Reverse-engineering is not copying. Reverse-engineering is the reinvention of the entire manufacturing process, including patents, to build the high-technology weapon or equipment. Unless you have dedicated brilliant scientists and a sufficiently-advanced high-technology base, reverse-engineering of high-technology weapons or equipment is not possible.

    Let's examine the excruciating process to reverse-engineer a mere torpedo. Please read the following paragraphs on the reverse-engineering of the Mark 48 torpedo. When you're done, tell me that you're not impressed by the scientists in a developing country that reinvented a high-technology weapon made by the world's leading technological power.

    Yu-6 torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Yu-6 torpedo
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Yu-6 (鱼-6) torpedo is the Chinese equivalent of the Mark 48 torpedo. In addition to wire and active / passive homing guidance, wake homing guidance is also incorporated. Many domestic Chinese sources have claimed that Yu-6 torpedo is in the same class as the Mk 48 Mod. 4 torpedo, but official information of Yu-6 torpedo released by the Chinese government is limited and such claim thus cannot be confirmed by sources outside China.

    Background

    At least one Mark 48 torpedo was reportedly recovered by Chinese fishermen in the late 1970s or early 1980s, and China might have begun the reverse engineering in the 1980s. However, due to the inexperience of the Chinese technological base at the time, as well as the concentration on economic development, most of the reverse engineering attempt was put on hold after research had been completed on Otto fuel II, wire guidance and some other subsystems, but some research continued on much smaller scale. The Yu-6 torpedo developmental program experienced a revival when the Chinese military realized that despite developing several torpedoes including the Yu-1, Yu-2, Yu-3, Yu-4, and Yu-5, the obsolete doctrine of having separate ASuW and ASW torpedoes proved to be unsuited for modern naval warfare and the Chinese navy needed a torpedo for both ASuW and ASW. As a result, the Yu-6 program was fully resumed in 1995 and 705th Institute was named as the primary contractor, Mr. Dong Chunpeng (董春鹏) as the general designer.

    Development

    One of the difficulties encountered was that the Yu-6 torpedo had greater operating depth than all previous Chinese torpedoes, and China could not build the new casing needed. A brand new alloy was required to cast the outer casing of the Yu-6 torpedo, and under the leadership of Professor. Ding Wenjiang (丁文江) of material science at Shanghai Jiao Tong University, the problem was solved when ZLJD-1S alloy was successfully developed and used to cast the casing for Yu-6 torpedo. Professor He Yuyao (贺昱曜) was in charge of developing power module for the newly developed computer of Yu-6 torpedo, and due to extremely high standard of the processing capability that demanded very advanced power source, this power module took three years to complete, (1999 – 2001).

    Another huge obstacle faced was the casing for the acoustic seeker required new materials to build, but China had never had any experience in this field when the reverse engineering was first attempted. Despite most reverse engineering attempt was put on hold, research in this field continued and Tianjin Rubber Research Institute (also known as Tianjin Municipal Rubber Industry Research Institute (天津市橡胶工业研究所) was tasked to develop the rubber needed for the acoustic seeker casing. A team of 7 scientists including Shen Yingjun (申英俊), Hou Yehua (侯月华), Zhang Jianguo (张建国), Ma Gangying (马刚英), Zhang Lixia (张立侠), An Jiazhu (安家柱) and Zhang Suqin (章素琴) was formed, and eventually developed new rubber and production technique needed October, 1994, shortly before the Yu-6 program was fully resumed in 1995. The resulting rubber not only met the original requirement, but also exceeded it, with density reaching 1.098 ton per cubic meter, speed of sound reaching 1,551 metre per second, and surface roughness reaching 0.16 micrometer.

    The propulsion system was the biggest obstacle in the development of Yu-6 torpedo. A team of three scientists including Ms. Su Li (苏丽), Mr. Mao Yuanfu (毛元福) and Mr. Wang Lisong (王立松) of Harbin Electro Carbon Research Institute (哈尔滨电碳研究所) was tasked to develop the graphite material used to make engine valves and other components. By September, 1998 the new graphite material, designated as M130, had been successfully developed and then utilized for Yu-6 torpedo. The piston ring of the engine was developed successfully in December 2003 by Yizheng Shuanghuan Piston Ring Co. Ltd. (仪征双环活塞环有限公司). Mr. Wang Guozhi (王国治) was in charge of noise reduction and his successful research in this field resulted in him winning a second place in the Chinese national scientific and technology advancement award in 1998.

    Over two-thirds of the technologies used for Yu-6 torpedo were new to the Chinese, and there were some serious doubts that China could complete the project on its own. Mr. Dong Chunpeng (董春鹏), a University of Science & Technology of China graduate in 1966 who then worked for 705th Institute since was determined to succeed, which he did after developing 18 patents including four in fields that China had never had any experience. After ten years of development, Yu-6 torpedo was finally accepted into service in 2005, and for the success, Mr. Dong Chunpeng (董春鹏) was awarded the 2006 Scientific and Technological Advancement Award at the end of February in Beijing. One characteristic of Yu-6 torpedo is its high performance processor. In comparison to the Motorola 68000 or Intel 8086 microprocessors commonly used on most western torpedoes, the microprocessor used for Yu-6 torpedo is at least equal to the Intel 80486 class. Some domestic Chinese sources have claimed that Loongson-1 is used for Yu-6 torpedo, and the operating system is the Kylin operating system developed by the National Defense Science and Technology University, but this has yet to be confirmed by both the Chinese government and sources outside China. Another characteristic of Yu-6 torpedo is that the transducer array of its acoustic seeker has at least 55 transducers, more than that of US Mark 48 torpedo, which has a total of 52 transducers, but the exact number has not been released. Yu-6 torpedo was also the first Chinese torpedo designed with the concepts of modular design and open architecture software programming in mind, so that when new technologies and programs become available, they could be readily incorporated. In comparison to the first generation Chinese wire guided torpedo Yu-5 torpedo, which must use acoustic guidance in the terminal stage or when the wire is severed, the wire and acoustic guidance can be switched from one to another at any time in the Yu-6 torpedo. Furthermore, when the wire of Yu-6 torpedo is severed, the targeting information stored in the memory would enable the computer onboard to calculate the approximate new location of the target, augmenting the acoustic homing to achieve a higher kill probability.

    Specifications

    * Diameter: 533 mm
    * Guidance: passive / active acoustic homing + wake homing + wire guidance
    * Propulsion: Otto fuel II
    * Speed: maximum > 65 kt (for attack)
    * Range: maximum 45 km+ (at the cruise speed)"

    [​IMG]
    Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo
     
    #5 Martian, Jul 3, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2011
  6. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Re: Russian-Chinese military technical cooperation

    I speak that I KNOW.
    Gidropribor and Morteplotekhnika were participants from Russia in this business. Development contract (1990 - 2002) has come to the end with delivery of 211TT1 torpedo compartments by Gidropribor.
    Thus, in 2002 Russian technologies and complete torpedo systems have been sold to China. And deliveries of technologies and test equipment proceeded next years. It has allowed to create Yu-6 torpedo by China.

    Variant of this torpedo under name TT-1 was offered in the world market since 2001 by Rosoboronexport.

    TT-1 Multipurpose Thermal-Powered Wire-Guided Homing Torpedo
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-451.html

    You have any knowledge of Russian-Chinese torpedo cooperation?
    Are you know what torpedoes have been bought by China from Russia in 1946-2010?
    And what technical assistance has been made?

    Answer these questions, please;))
     
  7. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Re: China's Yu-6 torpedo was reverse-engineered from U.S. Mark 48 heavyweight torpedo

    You have absolutely correctly written about “reinvention of the entire manufacturing process, including patents, to build the high-technology weapon or equipment”. And about brilliant Chinese scientists and engineers
    Only base for “excruciating process” was not mythical fisher’s American Mark 48 torpedo but completely realistic Russian ТТ-1 torpedo. Works under the 211TT1 torpedoes’ contract proceeded 12 years (1990-2002).
    ...
    "Yu-6 torpedo from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" - Wiki is only Wiki, is no more:))
     
  8. Hendrik_2000
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    Hendrik_2000 Brigadier

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    Re: China's Yu-6 torpedo was reverse-engineered from U.S. Mark 48 heavyweight torpedo

    You probably confused it with type53 which is exported to China with Kilo submarine . around the time span of 1990 Yu 6 is definitely modelled after Mark 48 torpedo They use different propellant so it could not be the same

    Type 53 torpedo
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mergefrom.svg
    It has been suggested that 53-65 torpedo be merged into this article or section. (Discuss) Proposed since September 2010.

    Type 53 is the common name for a family of 53 cm torpedoes manufactured in Russia, starting with the 53-27 torpedo and continuing to the modern UGST.

    Yu 6 didn't enter service until 2005 So your time span is off by 3 years way too long .
    The Wiki description is very detail It name person in charge, where they work time span so it most likely translation from Chinese open sources and very convincing .Your sources is nothing but guess and no detail whatsoever

    With the exception of the UGST which uses Mark 48 style monopropellants, Soviet 53 cm torpedoes generally use electric power, or kerosene mixed with various oxidizers for propulsion. Russian torpedoes are often named descriptively for their characteristics - examples include "acoustic homing" or "electric torpedo", all in Russian acronyms.

    The first Soviet torpedo with homing capability was the SAET-50. The 53-61 was the first Soviet homing torpedo to exceed 40 knots.

    The Chinese have either copied or reverse engineered several Soviet 53 cm torpedoes, though sources dispute exactly what was copied. For example, the Yu-1 is a non-homing weapon copied from either the 53-38 or the 53-51[citation needed]. The Yu-3 is considered a copy of the SET-65.

    The Type 53 torpedo is carried by almost all Russian submarines, including the Kilo class and the A
     
    #8 Hendrik_2000, Jul 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2011
  9. TorpHistorian
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    TorpHistorian New Member

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    Re: China's Yu-6 torpedo was reverse-engineered from U.S. Mark 48 heavyweight torpedo

    I know all Russian torpedoes and not confuse.
    With Kilo submarines old torpedoes TEST-71ME, SET-65E and 53-65KE were delivered.
    On the 211TT1 torpedoes’ contract it was developed analogue Mk 48 design (piston engine, Otto-II fuel). Russian analogues are TT-1 torpedo and UGST torpedo.
    ...
    Wiki about Russian torpedoes (like Chinese ones) it is fantastic:)
     
  10. Quickie
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    Quickie Captain

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    Re: China's Yu-6 torpedo was reverse-engineered from U.S. Mark 48 heavyweight torpedo

    Good point. Sources with named person-in-charge, named-scientists with their respective responsibilities and named facilities are way better than sources that always start with something like "according to some unnamed Russian sources."
     
    #10 Quickie, Jul 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2011
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