PLAN Supersonic Anti-Ship Missiles

slackpiv said:

The number of aaw the USN can put up will far exceed the number of missiles china can put up. Assuming the US treats China as it treats Iraq, the USN will have 4 CVBGS (most likely they will have more). 50 f-18s x 4 = 250 F-18S. plus USAAF from regional bases with F-117s, and B-2s. With AWACs support. With LAs, virginias, seaolfs, and possibly a SSGN. Believe me China's surface vessels will not be in an offensive footing. Based on China themselves, they will only be able to take on ONE cvbg without the USAAF involved. Put in 4 - 12 CVBGs, China will be overwhelmed. Most importantly of all, all China's ariel missile platforms will be within range of the SM-2ER before being able to launch their missiles.

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its unlikely america will treat china like iraq. china will prefer an invasion when the u.s has entangles itself with another middle eastern enemy to sap rescouces. regional bases? guam? its a couple thaousand miles away. it would take a few weeks to gather all those assets, if they were not pre grouped.

sm-2er!!!:roll:
does not stand a chance against a couple dozen batteires of s-300s and hq-9s lining chinese shores. as i repeat, china has combined ground and sea assets,as opposed to a u.s cvbg group with limited supplies.

of couse the su-30 can see 360. it has a rear mounted radar too.
as for ew, lets not go there. neither of you know what abilities chinese radars and sensors have, so dont go around making claims about what they will do.

MIGleader ..I must have missed something son..what's sm-2er?

as i repeat, china has combined ground and sea assets,as opposed to a u.s cvbg group with limited supplies.

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I do not doubt the PRC military assets. How those tanker aircraft looking???
I did not know that a USN CSG(Carrier Strike Group) had limited supplies? That's news to me and all the other thousands of sailors that have made deployments worldwide since WW 2. The logistical capablities of the all the US Armed Forces is virtually unlimited. I've never made a deployment and ran out of anything I made 7 major deployments.

regional bases? guam? its a couple thaousand miles away. it would take a few weeks to gather all those assets, if they were not pre grouped.

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The USAF has been basing F-15's on a rotational bases in Guam for some time now along with tanker and B-2's & B-52's. Don't forget the 7th fleet in Japan. Along with more USMC and USAF assets stationed there.

As for the PLAAF radar. We all can only speculate how well it works.

You have mentioned before about being on ship during an exercise involving AEGIS. I'm curious: How do they make the test realistic? How many and what kind of missiles do they use? How can they make it safe? I have read that the US military often scripts tests if they're not getting the results they want, is this true?

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Thanks for answering my questions. ..I was on a ship as a civillian during a demonstartion of the Ageis system. It worked as advertised. It is safe. The sailors operating it are well trained and know it works. Like IDonT says . It's no majic bullet...My son who spent some time aboard an Aegis crusier told me much about it. .. He is a sonar tech. But "Surface Warfare qualified"

Scripting is often done in wargames and excersises. As I have satated before many times in this for I have participated in excersises were we were told "It's our turn to lose" or "we can't do this or that". This happens often during NATO excersises and excersises with other nations. As far as testing the US weapons systems. The US does sometimes massage the results. The results are more often downplayed than ballyhooed. But the US military has been know to tell a tale or two. For instance when the first Tomahawks were tested. The word failure was often spoken. There were failures but most of the launches were a success. My S-3 squadron VS-33 was involved in 1981. We were not permitted to talk to anyone about the results. As directed by someone way up the chain of command.

Your a law student? Excellent. Good luck with that.

Oh by the way, you are an excellent poster.

sm-2er is the SM-2 Block IV Extended Range.
it should be noted that it is no longer in service, since aegis ships cannot fire it. its also terrible in a ground attack role.

MIGleader said:

of couse the su-30 can see 360. it has a rear mounted radar too.
as for ew, lets not go there. neither of you know what abilities chinese radars and sensors have, so dont go around making claims about what they will do.

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The SU-30 radar is not optimized for surface search, its more for anti-air. It cannot cover as wide an area as say a dedicated maritime recon aircraft such as the Bear or P-3. Besides it just doesn't make tactical sense to risk one of your vital assets on a recon, alone towards probable enemy held territory.

Chinese radars are based on French and Russian ones. US knows how to deal with those, France is a US ally, and Russia sells theirs to anyone. COnclusion: US knows how to deal with Chinese radars.

slackpiv said:

The number of aaw the USN can put up will far exceed the number of missiles china can put up. Assuming the US treats China as it treats Iraq, the USN will have 4 CVBGS (most likely they will have more). 50 f-18s x 4 = 250 F-18S. plus USAAF from regional bases with F-117s, and B-2s. With AWACs support. With LAs, virginias, seaolfs, and possibly a SSGN. Believe me China's surface vessels will not be in an offensive footing. Based on China themselves, they will only be able to take on ONE cvbg without the USAAF involved. Put in 4 - 12 CVBGs, China will be overwhelmed. Most importantly of all, all China's ariel missile platforms will be within range of the SM-2ER before being able to launch their missiles.

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250 F-18s would not overwhelm the 400 J-10/flankers + 200 J-8II that China will field. In case you haven't noticed, China has AWACS too.

Either way, I don't predict the Chinese surface fleet to last more than a day against 4 CVBGs, but it will get a chance to fire off plenty of AShMs. As long as JH-7 is protected, it will be able to fire off plenty of YJ-83s. How many of them get through will be another question. Notice, that's what I was responding to. As for your argument about China's aerial missile platforms being in range of SM-2s. You can say the same thing about 052C/051C.

SO your using your best asset, SU-30, for reconnaissance. That's not very smart. It's radar cannot see in a 360 field, not optimized for surface search, and will make it vulnerable to ambushes.

Never underestimate the UNited States electronic warfare capability. It is very very lethal. E-6B-prowler aircraft can jam BOth radar and communications signals, decoys could have you chasing radar shadows, etc. The US is very good at this. That is what most of you fail to grasp.

For example, a squadron of harppon armed hornets can be made to look like 10 squadrons in chinese radar. Which one will you vector your J-10's to? Or the communications from the radar operator and the J-10 fighter plane can be compromissed and J-10 being feed false data and ordered to attack several PLA air contacts on it radar.

I know what will be the standard response. CHina has this electronic warfare assets. Consider this. The Mig 15 and the F15 are jet fighters, are they equal in capabilities? The gulf between US and CHina in terms of electronic warfare is even greater than that of other things that we can quantify, like missile hardwar.

TO win the war in the ground, you need to win the war in the air, to win the war in the air, you need to win the war in the electronic battle field.

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No, I'm saying that Y-8 will be used for surveillence, once you get an idea that USN is coming, then you send out the su-30s to locate sea targets. Su-30 and the surface ships can data link to exchange location of opposing targets and such.

Against such situation, J-10 can turn off the radar and use information from mk2 + AWACS to do sneak attack. If this is close enough to the shore, J-10 can also get F-18 location information from 052C/051C and GC.

Believe me, there are fighters that pla is afraid of and F-18 isn't one of them.

slackpiv said:

Um the pac-3 has been tested. Its results were almost flawless and is considered to be one of the best in the world. First of all the Chinese supersonic missiles will be useless without any reconaissance. Second of all China's ships won't be able to launch their missiles within range. Third of all China's missiles will be intercepted by the sm-3, ESSM, sea RAM, and phalanx. The Harpoon may not stack well against Russian or Chinese missiles on paper, but the difference in stats lies in doctrine. The US relies on its airfleet for strike power. In other words the range of the harpoon is offset by the range of the F-18. Second of all, China does not have the ability to track USN submarines. China's ASW is dismal at best.

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I hope you're joking about how great the PAC-3 is! :roll:

Now I've heard some tall tales from the pro-Americans about great their radars and EW are and how this is going to make the PLAN completely obsolete. Please enlighten me where this decisive technological superiority comes from when China is ready to field AESA -- the MOST ADVANCED US TOY -- and has an equivalent radar on its 052C as the Arleigh Burke? You can bet that the PLAN is very close to the US in radar technology and anything the US can throw at it, it can throw right back.

Or is this just blind American hype we're going on here? I don't think hype works all that well in battle, as the US has found out time and time again. Or maybe you just find it easier to make up fantasies about something amorphous like EW than something concrete like how many missiles your AEGIS can really handle or how badly PAC-3 performed or how slow your anti-ship missiles are.

But I got to admit, even though the USN doesn't have the decisive qualitative edge some people think they do, the USN does have a decisive quantitative edge if they really want to amass their forces.

KlubMarcus said:

Kuwait City isn't floating in the sea in sections and moving hundreds of miles a day. :nana:

Does China have enough missiles to cover a million square kilometers of sea by firing at coordinates? Of course not, they're going to have to send planes and ships out hundreds of kilometers away from base to spot the fleet. Those planes and ships will be destroyed. Eventually the PLAN will stick close to port to "save face" or launch suicide missions at unknown forces over water. It's going to be a turkey shoot! Can you imagine the psy ops guys talking trash at the commie Chinese? They know we can hit them, but they have trouble hitting us beyond their horizon.

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Well, China will install an Over The Horizon Radar to detect USN CVBGs, and the OTH Radar will most probably be stationed in Hainan island, defended by PLAAF FT-2000s and soon, S-300PMU-2s. Plus, China will launch a high resolution camera on its future military satelites to increase the chances of monitoring USN Carrier Battle Groups. Info from the satelites will be relayed to PLAAF UAVs and Naval Strike Fighters as well as PLAN surface ships and subs to combine their missiles to target the USN CVBG.

So, yes, China will have the capability to monitor USN CVBGs in another 8-10 years.

the mkk2 radar was more oriented for surface search, as it was designed for the plan being an agile fighter with missles, an mkk2 can protect itself against intercepting fighters, unlike a tu-95. the sar system also allows 10 mkk2s to link up to form a wide search web. the mkk2 can also carry its own anti ship weaponry, as to deter the ships from closing in to shoot the plane down.

chinese radars may be based off of russian and french ones, but that does not mean china did not instal various new systems to them, making them less prone to foreign interference. if everyone knew how ot handle chinese radars, the u.s would not be demanding all this "transparency" from thr plan and pla.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the radar and sensors in the Su-30MKK/MK2 Russian, and not Chinese ones?

the radar and sensors on the mkk2s were custom modified by tumikoroov to fire kh-31 and to have the slar link system, and sar mapping. russia does not have any examples of its own.