PLAN Sovremenny DDG 136, 137, 138 & 139 Thread

[antiterror13]

I would say that back in 1995 no one would have thought that something like 911 can happen, that the US would be involved in two drawn out wars, and that the 2008 financial crisis would happen, and the ISIS issue and what not. So it's best to plan with a bit of leeway, and to take nothing for granted.

True, nobody expected 911. The biggest winner of 911 and 2008 Financial crisis was China ... China "won" big lotteries. The US was too busy while China consolidated their military, economy and science & Tech quietly.

China GDP in 2000 was only ~US$1T and the Defense spending was only ~$15B. In 2014 the GDP was ~$10T and defense spending was $135B

So in only 14 years Chinese economy and military (Def spending) has grown ~ 10X

 

[SinoSoldier]

I believe YJ-18 is significantly better than modernized Moskit installed on 138 and 139

I am not sure whether PLAN would replace Moskit as PLAN is believed has ~500 Moskits in their inventory ... quite a lot!, also YJ-18 is not cheap!!!

According to official U.S. data, the YJ-18 has a range of 540 km. Unofficial sources give it a top speed of Mach 2.5-3.

 

[SinoSoldier]

You also need to remember why and when China bought the Sovs.

That was a move directly in response to the US sailing carriers through the Taiwan Strait as a show force, and amid the generally tense times when the pro-Independence LDP were in power in Taiwan.

That was something Beijing was determined to never allow to happen again (obviously excluding real innocent passage). It was decided that if the US ever sailed carriers that close to the mainland again, it would be the carriers that are the ones in danger, not the Chinese mainland.

Given the general high tensions at the time, China was making those purchase decisions with the backdrop of a real possibility of having to fight a hot war on a massive scale against the world's only superpower. One does not cut corners with that sort of threat hanging over them.

I'm not sure that I fully agree with your analysis, even though I think you've explained it very well.

Buying 500+ missiles for four platforms assumes that the PLAN had, in 1995, the resources to dock and reload their Sovs numerus times in the event of a hot war with the US Navy. This is quite difficult to digest, given that the US would have had total electronic, aerial, and naval superiority under the circumstances of that time. Drawing from a 1996 incident in which a single US Navy Prowler shut down the entire Nanjing military district's systems, it was very doutbful that the Sovremennys would have lasted long enough for weapons reloads of that frequency. It is odd why the PLAN did not choose to go for more Sovs and less missiles.

 

[antiterror13]

China was not that rich in 1995 and obviously Sovs was much more expensive than Moskit

 

[FarkTypeSoldier]

Hi guys,

How do I share a Youtube video, I am unfamiliar with this new website video link? There is a Chinese program which I usually shared have an episode of Sovs upgrading now.

Cheers.

 

[Blitzo]

I believe YJ-18 is significantly better than modernized Moskit installed on 138 and 139

I am not sure whether PLAN would replace Moskit as PLAN is believed has ~500 Moskits in their inventory ... quite a lot!, also YJ-18 is not cheap!!!

I'm only catching up on this thread now... and what the heck, where have you read that the PLAN has 500 moskits???

 

[plawolf]

I'm not sure that I fully agree with your analysis, even though I think you've explained it very well.

Buying 500+ missiles for four platforms assumes that the PLAN had, in 1995, the resources to dock and reload their Sovs numerus times in the event of a hot war with the US Navy. This is quite difficult to digest, given that the US would have had total electronic, aerial, and naval superiority under the circumstances of that time. Drawing from a 1996 incident in which a single US Navy Prowler shut down the entire Nanjing military district's systems, it was very doutbful that the Sovremennys would have lasted long enough for weapons reloads of that frequency. It is odd why the PLAN did not choose to go for more Sovs and less missiles.

I think you have it the other way round.

China didn't so much buy the Moskit/Sunburn for their Sovs, rather, they bought the Sov to get access to the Moskits.

In that respect, I seriously doubt they would have relied on the Sovs as the only, or maybe even primary delivery platform for those missiles.

Given how much Russian tech China was buying back then, and the fact that the 052B DDG is in effect a Chinese indigenous version of the Sov (sans the Moskits interesting enough), it would not surprise me at all if China developed coastal AShM batteries capable of using Moskits.

In addition, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that their Su30Mkks and MK2s might be able to launch Moskits, especially if reports from the late 90s and early 2000s about China either cracking or having acquired the Su27 and MKK radar system source codes prove accurate, as that means even if they Russians didn't integrate the missiles for China, the Chinese could have done it themselves.

But we are getting into speculation territory with that, so I will leave it there.

 

[schenkus]

China didn't so much buy the Moskit/Sunburn for their Sovs, rather, they bought the Sov to get access to the Moskits.

In that respect, I seriously doubt they would have relied on the Sovs as the only, or maybe even primary delivery platform for those missiles.

I agree, if China really bought 500 of the missiles they could not rely on only 4 Sovs to deliver even a quarter of those missiles.

But that during all these years no other method of delivery (whether coastal battery or aircraft) has been "discovered" indicates to me that this number might just be a rumor and fewer missiles have actually been bought.

 

[tphuang]

I think you have it the other way round.

China didn't so much buy the Moskit/Sunburn for their Sovs, rather, they bought the Sov to get access to the Moskits.

In that respect, I seriously doubt they would have relied on the Sovs as the only, or maybe even primary delivery platform for those missiles.

Given how much Russian tech China was buying back then, and the fact that the 052B DDG is in effect a Chinese indigenous version of the Sov (sans the Moskits interesting enough), it would not surprise me at all if China developed coastal AShM batteries capable of using Moskits.

In addition, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that their Su30Mkks and MK2s might be able to launch Moskits, especially if reports from the late 90s and early 2000s about China either cracking or having acquired the Su27 and MKK radar system source codes prove accurate, as that means even if they Russians didn't integrate the missiles for China, the Chinese could have done it themselves.

But we are getting into speculation territory with that, so I will leave it there.

They didn't get sov for moskit/sunburn. They got sovs for all the other stuff that they've since cloned and are on all the other ships now.

 

[SinoSoldier]

I think you have it the other way round.

China didn't so much buy the Moskit/Sunburn for their Sovs, rather, they bought the Sov to get access to the Moskits.

In that respect, I seriously doubt they would have relied on the Sovs as the only, or maybe even primary delivery platform for those missiles.

Given how much Russian tech China was buying back then, and the fact that the 052B DDG is in effect a Chinese indigenous version of the Sov (sans the Moskits interesting enough), it would not surprise me at all if China developed coastal AShM batteries capable of using Moskits.

In addition, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that their Su30Mkks and MK2s might be able to launch Moskits, especially if reports from the late 90s and early 2000s about China either cracking or having acquired the Su27 and MKK radar system source codes prove accurate, as that means even if they Russians didn't integrate the missiles for China, the Chinese could have done it themselves.

But we are getting into speculation territory with that, so I will leave it there.

To be honest, if the Chinese had really adapted their Moskits to shore-based launchers, we would've seen them by now.

But I do agree with the argument that the Chinese would have looked into modifications for the AShMs to be adapted aboard various platforms.