PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

The year is not 221BC. There are other nations, powers and economies than China on this planet now. It is time you upgraded your mindset to share this planet with the rest of humanity instead of dictating to others and taking what you want because you believe were first.

You do not get to force your way upon others because your culture has been around longer.

Exactly, following primarily the US example but also that of other colonial/military expeditionary powers China should just be completely hypocritical, do whatever it pleases that can be coerced via military power, lawfare, and propaganda while proclaiming itself a saint and sowing discord around the world.
 

Brumby

Major
No there is such thing as historic water. UNCLOS is very complicated document due to compromise and many sub article. I believe this is what China is aiming. Delineation is not just based on geography but also on historic water read this
The Concept of Historic Rights

The term ‘historic waters’ should not be confused with ‘historic rights.’ Both are legal concepts that exist under customary international law,
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but with different scope and legal application. A claim of historic right means that a state is claiming to exercise a certain right in relation to other states by effectively exercising those rights with the acquiescence of the states concerned.
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The requirements that must be satisfied in order to successfully establish a claim of historic rights are the same as those required to establish historic waters – in terms of proof of long-established activities and the continuous exercise of these activities with the acquiescence of other states.
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Having said that, although the jurisprudence from international courts and tribunals reflects a reluctance to recognize a state’s claim of historic rights, a state will have a better chance of successfully making a claim to historic rights than to historic waters. This is because even though the elements for establishing historic rights are the same as those required for establishing historic waters, there are a few significant differences between the two concepts.

First, historic rights claims do not amount to a sovereignty claim.
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Historic rights merely give the claiming state the right to conduct a specific activity – like fishing – due to long usage.
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As the ICJ stated in the Qatar/Bahrain case, the historic pearling activities of Bahrain have never led to the recognition of a ‘quasi-territorial right’ to the fishing ground itself. This means that even if the historic pearling rights of Bahrain were recognized, it would not have amounted to sovereignty or any form of ‘quasi-sovereignty’ over the pearling banks or to the superjacent waters.
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It is surely easier for a state to provide evidence of prolonged fishing activities in an area of water than to try to establish a prolonged exercise of sovereignty over the area. As noted above, it is important to remember that a state’s claim to historic rights does not mean that this right gives the claiming state sovereignty over the relevant body of waters.

Second, a historic rights claim is not exclusive. Since the existence of historic rights in one area does not amount to sovereignty, it is possible for certain rights of other states to exist concurrently in the same body of water. For example, in the Tunisia/Libya case, Libya recognized Tunisia’s right to fish for sedentary species in the Gulf of Tunis, but claimed that such right was never purported to exclude foreigners from the exploitation of these fisheries.
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In the Eritrea/Yemen arbitration, the Tribunal declared that the recognition of Eritrea’s historic fishing right within Yemen’s territorial sea around the islands of Hanis and Zuqar, as well as around the islands of Jabal al-Tayr and the Zubayr group, did not exclude Yemen’s enjoyment of the same right, either based on history or on UNCLOS.
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I would need you to clarify three things before I comment.
(a)Can you please confirm whether the subject of conversation is about historic waters or about historic rights;
(b)What specific legal argument and conclusion do you want to make as a result of (a); and
(c)The reference link to the contents that you just shared as I need to understand the context of it
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The year is not 221BC. There are other nations, powers and economies than China on this planet now. It is time you upgraded your mindset to share this planet with the rest of humanity instead of dictating to others and taking what you want because you believe were first.

You do not get to force your way upon others because your culture has been around longer.

When you mix perceived past wronged, historical grievances and territory, it become a combustible mix.
As I said before China is very accommodating to Indonesia and has no design to her territory. Compare to Russia, China is very restraint. See what happened when the Russian ethnic group was mistreated in Ukraine, They sent the tank rolling to Ukraine. China doesn't even protest when ethnic Chinese were raped burned and looted because it stick to non interference.

But when it come to territory, it is different ball game. Due to past wronged China feel it is not fairly treated and the game is stack against China. Therefore certain amount of alignment is needed here.

China did settle 17 out of 22 border dispute peacefully that show China can play by the rule. Insisting on winner take all is loosing preposition. Because China is not going anywhere and she will get stronger by the day. Whether you like it or not SEA will have to learn living with stronger China
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
When you mix perceived past wronged, historical grievances and territory, it become a combustible mix.

The rest of humanity does not share your values. Look at how all other nations in this matter react. This is due to China's behaviour being out of step with the rest of humanity.
Perceived past wrongs?
Historical grievances and territory?
The rest of humanity has matured, moved on, and accepts where the lines on the map are drawn. It is what societies do to realise reality and accept things as they actually are.

Join the other 82% of mankind, stop being a victim.

Other nations do not do this.
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
More than that, colonial powers including "the West" but most often and egregiously the US behaves badly while claiming to be a saint at the same time flouting whatever rules and norms there are then turning around and using these to accuse and oppress others.

This is not about "the West". Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia are not the West.
 

ahojunk

Senior Member
Picture of Yongshu Island dated 27 March 2016. There are lots of buildings and quite a numbers of shipping vessels in the harbor. From the top, it looks like a panther crouching and ready to pounce.
YongShu.永暑岛.2016-03-27a_satview.jpg

Picture of Subi Island dated 28 March 2016. It looks like the airstrip will be ready soon. Also, there are lots of buildings and construction occurring. There are quite a number of shipping vessels in the harbor.
Zhubi.渚碧礁.Subi.2016-03-28a_satview.jpg

Two pictures of Meiji Island dated 25 March 2016. Again, the airstrip will be ready soon. Lots of construction and buildings in the northern part. The three original outposts/platforms are now standing on solid ground.
Meiji.美济礁.Mischief.2016-03-25a_satview.jpg

Meiji.美济礁.Mischief.2016-03-25b_satview.jpg
 

youngtomous

Junior Member
The rest of humanity does not share your values. Look at how all other nations in this matter react. This is due to China's behaviour being out of step with the rest of humanity.
Perceived past wrongs?
Historical grievances and territory?
The rest of humanity has matured, moved on, and accepts where the lines on the map are drawn. It is what societies do to realise reality and accept things as they actually are.

Join the other 82% of mankind, stop being a victim.

Other nations do not do this.

What the opinion of you for China behaviour? At the end of 2nd World War.China recapture those islands from Japan with the USA NAVY help ,all the rest of the world accept those islands is belong to China at that time.Till now only different is the govement was change from KMT to CCP. At 8th,April ,1958 when CCP annouced it territorial sea include those island(through they didn't had ability to get there ,they all controll by KMT),Veitnam Premier totally agree with it .And Philippine start claims this territorial from 11th JUNE 1978, The PHI biggest occupy island (Thitu Island) was recapture by China (KMT) at 1946 ,but occupy by PHI at 1971.
Kick out this two country ,can you tell me China againist which Country for this ? Malasiya ? Only a small territorial dispute with China and Malasiya. Indonesia did't claim any island.
if you ask what CCP did since 1949 ? What CCP did when Vietnam and PHI occupy those islands. at that time CCP only had small boat they can't get there,Through the KMT they had a very strong NAVY at that time but they don't care about this place,only keep the biggest island ( Taiping Islsnd) .
As you said the 82% of mankind dodn't agree with China territorial sea . Who give you abilitily to represent the 82% of mankind to charge China behaviour?
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Your claims are demonstrably false.
The rest of humanity does not share your values. Look at how all other nations in this matter react. This is due to China's behaviour being out of step with the rest of humanity.
Have you read some global news lately? If not, BBC is a good source. Once you have, then you'll see the problem isn't China's behavior is an outlier, quite to the contrary, it's behavior is all too common vis-a-vis rest of the world.

Perceived past wrongs?
Historical grievances and territory?
The rest of humanity has matured, moved on, and accepts where the lines on the map are drawn. It is what societies do to realise reality and accept things as they actually are.
Where do you live? On Mars? On Venus? What's the address of your Nirvana, we all want to live there!

Join the other 82% of mankind, stop being a victim.

Other nations do not do this.
Oh really? Let's see now, and just in this decade...

Nigeria, Niger, Chad- Islamist insurgencies
Rwanda- genocide
Darfur- tribal war
Mozambique- Renamo insurgency
South Sudan- civil war
Central Africa Republic- civil war
Yemen- civil war
Somalia- civil war
Iraq- invasion, civil war, Islamist insurgencies
Afghanistan- invasion, civil war, Islamist insurgencies
Libya- invasion, civil war, Islamist insurgencies
Syria- civil war, Islamist insurgencies
Lebanon- Syrian civil war spill over
Egypt- Islamist insurgencies
Turkey- sectarian violence, Islamist insurgencies
Mali- civil war, Islamist insurgencies
Tunisia- Magherb insurgencies
Burundi- tribal violence
Ukraine- invasion, civil war
Mexico- drug war
Pakistan- Islamist insurgencies
India- religious violence
Philippines- Islamist insurgencies
Russia- North Caucasus insurgencies
China- Islamist insurgencies
United States- Islamist attack, Islamist insurgencies

I'm sure there are more if we do some research.
 
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