PLAN Littoral Combat Ships II

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
This has been a subject talked about time and time again but don't think shipbourne defenses are 100% effective. There have been real-war cases that they haven't worked. The missiles weren't detected in time for defenses to start working.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
This has been a subject talked about time and time again but don't think shipbourne defenses are 100% effective. There have been real-war cases that they haven't worked. The missiles weren't detected in time for defenses to start working.
No defenses are 100% effective, shipbourne or otherwise. The cases where missiles weren't detected were due to cluttered littoral environment, not being at full wartime alert, human error, a combination thereof, or in the case of the HMS Sheffield, inadequate combat doctrine. We are talking about a hypothetical open sea force on force engagement during wartime with both ships and crew at full readiness, expecting hostilities. A situation, by the way, in which littoral combatants like the Type 022 would likely not find themselves.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
No defenses are 100% effective, shipbourne or otherwise. The cases where missiles weren't detected were due to cluttered littoral environment, not being at full wartime alert, human error, a combination thereof, or in the case of the HMS Sheffield, inadequate combat doctrine. We are talking about a hypothetical open sea force on force engagement during wartime with both ships and crew at full readiness, expecting hostilities. A situation, by the way, in which littoral combatants like the Type 022 would likely not find themselves.

Agree, these are a nice bunch of piranhas to enhance the strike capability of a detection network using other platforms in an environment rich with confusing signals to keep out the alligators(amphibious warfare ships), but they won't go swimming with the sharks(blue water assets, especially carriers) unless these get reckless and enter green waters again.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Even the mighty USN's Aegis system cannot block all the missiles. I remember an expert mentioned it in an academic article, forgot what it was about, he briefly touched on this topic. He said even the latest Patriot system can't block more than 30% of the missiles in real combat. The stat from Gulf war was extremely exaggerated. On top of that, Iraq was one of the least capable in terms of missile capability. For a country like Russia or China, the latest missiles are much harder to intercept, especially if it cruises at extremely low altitude and switch to supersonic speed at terminal attack stage. With all the Standards, Sparrows and gatlin guns combined, they'll be lucky if they can get 50% of the incoming missiles. When there are more than a 100 missiles flying towards you, it's almost impossible to intercept them all.
In wartime, the US is not going to send any carrier anywhere that they might be "swarmed" by 20-30 Type 022 FACs. Count on it.

They will use subs, aircraft, and numerous other assets to sllwly work their way in, sanitizing an area they seek to deny access to by agressor vessels. And they will stand a long way off when they begin that process.

If a force get an attack in on a carrier far out to sea, it is most apt to come from sub launched missiles and aircraft launched missiles as the aircraft of the carrier will be aboe to most probably find and detect any large surface group approaching for those purposes (ie. a missile attack), unless that force has its own adequate carrier defense coverage, in which case you are into a strike at sea, carier group vs carrier group battle, which at this time there is no country with enough carriers or the right carrier wing to really challenge the US Navy. That may change over the next coupld ofdecades.

So, you will have basically a Socviet doctrine of tryoing to overwhelm the US defenses with enough missiles (from aircraft and or subs) and what the AEGIS system has been designed specifically to defend against.

Aircraft will take out some missiles or the aircraft carrying them. Picket vessels will take out some, far from the carrier on the various threat axis.

Then closer in, there will be a defense zone where the main escoryts use cooperatve engagement to use all of their defenses to take out the incoming missile streams from which ever threat axis they are located on. With extended range standard missiles, to medium range standard missiles, to Evolved Sea Sparrow missiles, to RAM missile.

At the same time very powerful EQ will be in play reacking havoc on many of the missiles themselves.

Any that get through all of that will then have to deal with the gaol tender group right with the carrier with their own standard missiles, evolved sea sparrow missiles, RAM missiles and finally CIWS gatlin guns, and more EW.

In wartime it is likely that there will be two AEGIS cruisers and 2-4 AIEGIS DDGs with each carrier. That will be upwards of 600 defensive missile ready to go from those vessels, not counting the 58 missiles and gatling guns each carrier carriers itself, or any missiles (AMRAAM, etc) that the fleet defense fighters engage with.

The Soviets felt they would have to use several multi-regimiental sized attacks on each carrier to get through back in the 80s. It will take more now.

One thought was to incrementally come in closer and closer to the carrier by massively attacking the various rings of defense. This takes longer and requires more aircraft overall. Another tactic was to drive direct in towards the carrier inner ring with as many aircraft and missiles as possible so the outer rings cannot possible get them all, and keep hammering at the inner ring until you break it down and begin scoring hits on the carrier.

Either way, it takes a masive investment in aircraft, subs, and recon technology to make those things happen. I do not believe the PLAN is ready for that yet...let's hope it never comes to that.
 

escobar

Brigadier
If PLAN strategy against USN is to wait and fight near chinese waters, they have already "partially" lost.
It is a very bad strategy but for now they don't have a choice.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
If PLAN strategy against USN is to wait and fight near chinese waters, they have already "partially" lost.
It is a very bad strategy but for now they don't have a choice.
Agreed.

They will not be able to do anything different until they build up enough fporce projection to be able to contend further away...and even then it will be hard unless they come up with carriers as strong and varied, aircraft as storng and varied and with the range, and escorts as powerful as what the US is fielding. Long time off...and hopefully it will never come to that anyway.
 

escobar

Brigadier
They will not be able to do anything different until they build up enough fporce projection to be able to contend further away...and even then it will be hard unless they come up with carriers as strong and varied, aircraft as storng and varied and with the range, and escorts as powerful as what the US is fielding. Long time off...

Exactly.

and hopefully it will never come to that anyway.

:confused:
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
No defenses are 100% effective, shipbourne or otherwise. The cases where missiles weren't detected were due to cluttered littoral environment, not being at full wartime alert, human error, a combination thereof, or in the case of the HMS Sheffield, inadequate combat doctrine. We are talking about a hypothetical open sea force on force engagement during wartime with both ships and crew at full readiness, expecting hostilities. A situation, by the way, in which littoral combatants like the Type 022 would likely not find themselves.

They weren't at full readiness during the Iraq War? A Seersucker got past all sorts of allied sensors at land and at sea and in the air never to be detected once. Isn't a swarm attack clutter?
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
They weren't at full readiness during the Iraq War? A Seersucker got past all sorts of allied sensors at land and at sea and in the air never to be detected once.
Actually 5 Seersuckers got past, never to be detected once. The problem is that detecting cruise missiles flying over land is an entirely different beast from detecting cruise missiles flying over the water. There is also no verifiable public evidence that either the Patriot or the Aegis missile defense systems were involved in any of the 5 failure to detect incidents, despite some journalist claims that the Patriot was involved in at least some of them.

Isn't a swarm attack clutter?
It depends on how good your software is.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Actually 5 Seersuckers got past, never to be detected once. The problem is that detecting cruise missiles flying over land is an entirely different beast from detecting cruise missiles flying over the water. There is also no verifiable public evidence that either the Patriot or the Aegis missile defense systems were involved in any of the 5 failure to detect incidents, despite some journalist claims that the Patriot was involved in at least some of them.


It depends on how good your software is.

The Seersucker I'm talking about flew over land and parts of the Persian Gulf and Kuwait Bay to hit Kuwait City. This was at the height of the war where they were looking for any scud launch. That's a real war scenario.
 
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