It is not 'much smaller'. Both the type 927 and the impeccable class are ~5300 ton catamarans
Its known beam of 32m is wider than the impeccable class
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PLAN ASW Capability
- Thread starter shen
- Start date
It is not 'much smaller'. Both the type 927 and the impeccable class are ~5300 ton catamarans
Its known beam of 32m is wider than the impeccable class
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Since these are warships, wartime is also the only time when their performance and capabilities really matters.
Wartime is the only time ASW would be truly relevant, and the only time I ever consider when talking about warships.
It is putting the cart in front of the horse to have a warship that is perfect for peacetime routine patrols, but which is ill suited for actual wars.
You have the coast guard for peace time routine patrols.
For actual hot wars, the 056 ASW variants will absolutely deploy as part of a fleet, and be tasked with the outer layer ASW defence for the fleet.
Any enemy subs wanting to get at the big juicy targets deep inside the fleet defences would need to get through the outer screen of 056s first.
Even if they can sneak by undetected, it becomes pretty much a suicide mission for them to attack warships further in when they are sandwiched in between the two ASW layers of 056s and 054As, with PLAN subs also lurking.
The alternative is to waste their element of surprise on bagging an 056, and then having to run for their lives as the rest of the fleet deploys ASW assets to retaliate.
Once we start getting details of that recent PLAN 40+ ship fleet exercise in the SCS, I have little doubt that 056s were involved, and would have been deployed precisely in this matter.
With PLAN subs probably playing opfor to try and breach the fleet ASW screens to get at the destroyers and carriers. Although we probably won’t get that level to detail from Chinese releases.
In fact, I measured its size on Google earth and compared it with the Impeccable's, they are comparable.
SinoSoldier
Colonel
056 is ill-equipped for any serious ASW operations. It can only be armed with four long-range ASW rockets and its limited size also means that its endurance will be far less than that of other surface combatants in a CBG. A follow-on class should feature at least 16-32 VLS-launched ASROCs as well as 8 slant-launched long-range ASW missiles.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
And such a ship will likely be similar in size to an 054A, with correspondingly higher costs and crew requirements, as well as presenting a far more tempting target.
Each 056 can carry 4 ASROCs with 4 torpedoes, more than enough to kill an enemy sub in range. There will likely be 4-8 of them with a CSG. There will almost be ASROCs the likes of the 054A, 052D and 055 could all carry. Not to mention all the stuff the fleet’s ASW helicopters can bring to the mix.
Firepower is not what any CSG lacks in terms of ASW.
Each 056 might not be much of a match for a much heavier ASW frigate, but their main point is to be small and not worthwhile targets. That makes them ideal outer picket ships for a CSG since taking one or two of them out would not seriously compromise the fleet’s ASW capabilities. With so many of them available to support the fleet, when properly deployed, even if a sub kills one or two 056s, they should be others close enough to retaliate near instantly. An 056 is a poor trade for any modern sub.
But the enemy sub commanders could not simply leave them either, because as small as they can, they pack a pretty comprehensive ASW package and have more than enough firepower to kill a sub.
For the kinds of heavy ASW frigate you are talking about, a CSG will likely only get as many as they currently have 054As, so loosing one or two would put a significant hole in the fleet’s ASW capacities.
As for range, well please let me know where a PLAN fleet is likely to be fighting a near-peer rival naval power that would need such long endurance?
China has zero interest in invading America, choking India or colonising Africa, so why does it need to have such long endurance for its ‘all hands on deck’ ASW contingency fleet?
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Exactly during WWII The allies built large number of socalled Destroyer escort or DE puposedly built for anti submarine warfare and the size is almost the same as type 56. Theyare small so they can zip in and out from the convoy and hunt the submarine
General description
Full-size must be able to steam as fast or faster than the fast such as and . This typically requires a speed of 25–35 (46–65 km/h) (dependent upon the era and navy). They must carry and a smaller caliber of cannon to use against enemy ships, as well as anti-submarine detection equipment and weapons.
A destroyer escort needed only to be able to maneuver relative to a slow convoy (which in World War II would travel at 10 to 12 knots (19 to 22 km/h)), and be able to defend against aircraft and detect, pursue and attack . These lower requirements greatly reduce the size, cost, and crew required for the destroyer escort. Destroyer escorts were optimized for , having a tighter turning radius and more specialized armament (such as the forward-firing mortar) than fleet destroyers. Their much slower speed was not a liability in this context, since was useless at speeds over 20 knots (37 km/h). Destroyer escorts were also considerably more sea-kindly than .[]
General characteristics
Type:
Displacement: 1,360 tons (fully loaded)
Length: 289 ft 6 in (88.2 m) (overall)
Beam: 35 ft (10.7 m)
Draft: 9 ft (2.7 m) (fully loaded)
Propulsion: 4 × GM Model 16-278A diesel engines with electric drive, two propellers of solid manganese bronze 8.5 feet each
Speed: 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph) (Many ships were capable of 21–22 knots)
Range: 5,000 mi (4,300 nmi; 8,000 km) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph)
General description
Full-size must be able to steam as fast or faster than the fast such as and . This typically requires a speed of 25–35 (46–65 km/h) (dependent upon the era and navy). They must carry and a smaller caliber of cannon to use against enemy ships, as well as anti-submarine detection equipment and weapons.
A destroyer escort needed only to be able to maneuver relative to a slow convoy (which in World War II would travel at 10 to 12 knots (19 to 22 km/h)), and be able to defend against aircraft and detect, pursue and attack . These lower requirements greatly reduce the size, cost, and crew required for the destroyer escort. Destroyer escorts were optimized for , having a tighter turning radius and more specialized armament (such as the forward-firing mortar) than fleet destroyers. Their much slower speed was not a liability in this context, since was useless at speeds over 20 knots (37 km/h). Destroyer escorts were also considerably more sea-kindly than .[]
General characteristics
Type:
Displacement: 1,360 tons (fully loaded)
Length: 289 ft 6 in (88.2 m) (overall)
Beam: 35 ft (10.7 m)
Draft: 9 ft (2.7 m) (fully loaded)
Propulsion: 4 × GM Model 16-278A diesel engines with electric drive, two propellers of solid manganese bronze 8.5 feet each
Speed: 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph) (Many ships were capable of 21–22 knots)
Range: 5,000 mi (4,300 nmi; 8,000 km) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph)
I can see 056s operating as part of a larger combined task force or even a CSG if operations are only contained to well within the first island chain, and only for a short duration.
056s simply do not have the endurance to operate much further beyond that IMO.
For any operations outside of China's immediate maritime periphery, larger 054A sized frigates will take up the primary brunt of the ASW work.
That said, I believe Iron Man is also correct in saying that 056s will operate either alone or in small groups for the ASW role as well, in the same immediate periphery as they would if they were operating as part of a larger task group. There's no reason 056s cannot operate alone/or in small units, while also being able to operate as a bigger group. But both of those mission profiles it will be limited to China's immediate periphery.
Also important to note that the 056 hull form is rated to a lower seaworthiness than 054 and 052 hulls.
It's rated for a maximum of 46m/s winds while 054 and 052 are rated for 52m/s+. Wave resistance is rated for a maximum of 14m high waves while 052 and 054 are rated for 14m+. Its initial stability is also 0.7m while 054 and 052 have 0.75m+. The Liaoning's, for comparison, is 3m. It's most definitely a littoral vessel meant to secure China's periphery.
It's also capable of refueling helicopters so a hangar is redundant since it's never more than 1000km from friendly bases and more extensive maintenance can be offloaded to land bases or friendly large vessels.
Then your scope of consideration is far narrower than that of the PLAN leadership, since they clearly are using this class far differently than your claims about it.
Again, patently wrong. This is a logical non sequitur, i.e. the conclusion does not follow from the premise. Saying that 056s might operate alone or in small groups or operate as part of a fleet either in peacetime or wartime, has absolutely nothing to do with them being or not being "ill suited" for actual wars.
No, they would absolutely not. They may be deployed as part of a fleet in wartime, or even during wartime they may operate alone or in small groups. It would depend on the mission and on the area of operations. In low threat areas, even during wartime, they may not need to operate as part of a fleet, and would be around to catch enemy subs in transit to active theaters or catch them as they escape, scout for any surface ships heading towards/away from certain theaters, or any number of other scenarios.
No, they would most definitely not work this way, at least not routinely. The "outer screen" consists of ships both large and small and is more of a close group of ships deployed out towards the expected threat axis rather than some kind of actual perimeter around the carrier. If you're a CSG that's expecting company, putting a bunch of 056s out there by themselves without adequate anti-air defense is gratuitously bad decision-making.
The role of 056A is not to hunt subs themselves but to facilitate their hunt. They are to sit fairly close to the shore, being protected by the air forces, and be quiet, listening with their sonars. When they detect something that could be a submarine, their info gets passed onto other platforms tasked for the hunt. Those may be other ships, planes or helicopters. And perhaps in some situations some helicopters may use the 056A as a launch/refuel/rearmament platform. In those missions, the active sonar on 056A may also help.
Compared to other platforms for sonar listening - 056A is either much cheaper to operate (054A and the destroyers) or has much greater endurance (24/7, compared to a few hours of battery operated floating buoys and/or dipped sonar on aircraft) or has better performance (again, longer array compared to floating and or dipped sonars)
Compared to other platforms for sonar listening - 056A is either much cheaper to operate (054A and the destroyers) or has much greater endurance (24/7, compared to a few hours of battery operated floating buoys and/or dipped sonar on aircraft) or has better performance (again, longer array compared to floating and or dipped sonars)