PLAN Future FFG design

Some chinese bloggers seem to be confused about what exactly Mr. Cavas was told by CSSC:

Check dafeng cao's latest tweet, where he thinks that "not in production, design not final" means that it is an eliminated design and the PLAN wants a IEPS enabled 054B instead.

Some guy here with twitter please ask him if he had more information on that, or that he simply misunderstood Cava's tweet.

Insignius said:

Some chinese bloggers seem to be confused about what exactly Mr. Cavas was told by CSSC:

Check dafeng cao's latest tweet, where he thinks that "not in production, design not final" means that it is an eliminated design and the PLAN wants a IEPS enabled 054B instead.

Some guy here with twitter please ask him if he had more information on that, or that he simply misunderstood Cava's tweet.

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Probably a result of his own speculation and assessment of contextual rumours.

But it's not entirely unreasonable -- I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy assessed some other hullforms for its 054A successor, but turned down a trimaran for a hull derived from 054A instead.

And it also wouldn't be a surprise if the studies for the trimaran "054A successor frigate" was then adapted for additional other configurations, such as one (likely smaller and less capable than the "054A successor frigate") that we see now at IDEX being offered for export, and potentially another trimaran hull from the same original design that they are now pushing to the Navy (which the Navy may have or may not have accepted) for a different mission profile.

Lethe said:

I would not place too much emphasis on the exact configuration. Notice that the configuration displayed is intended for export, where most export clients are very price-sensitive. I think it is reasonable to assume that any PLAN variant would differ in a number of respects.

I see this vessel as succeeding 056 as China's "light" warship, with a future ~6000 ton frigate as the "medium" warship, and of course the 12-13,000 ton Type 055 as the "heavy".

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I think this ship is unlikely to be the light end of PLAN's blue water mix, if that is what you are talking about. It is simply too small to have a meaningful role in a CSG; in this respect it would be similar to the LCS 2 Independence class trimaran, also not intended as a blue water escort. It would be a liability and would not be able to protect itself very well from air threats, especially compared to a 054A. You would have to ask yourself why would the PLAN rather have this ship in a CSG instead of a 054A? My own speculation for a future blue water mix is a 5,000-5,500 ton "054B" (ASW, local air defense), 8,000-9,000 ton "052E" (fleet air defense, ASuW), and a 12-13,000 ton 055 (fleet air defense, AAW C&C, ASuW, land attack, ?BMD defense).

Bltizo said:

I'm thinking something the size of Thales APAR could fit atop the mast of that size yes.

And of course all of this is dependent on what the ship ends up being equipped with, which is what we are speculating about. The CSSC official said the PLAN is supposedly seeking a variant of the trimaran model they've displayed, so that gives us sufficient leeway to speculate about what sort of capabilities the Chinese Navy may desire.

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The APAR may work, but again, it entirely depends on what is that VLS and what is inside that VLS that would or would not justify an AESA over a standard radar set IMO. An AESA just to guide 16 MRSAMs seems to be entirely an overkill, especially if the primary mission of this ship is going to be ASW.

Bltizo said:

I don't necessarily think all ASW missions must have ships operate in packs, obviously in blue water for CSG escorts they do not do so.
But I do think for ASW mission parameters that 056As may operate in (littoral or near Chinese waters) it may make sense to operate in packs. However like I said, I'm not sure if there is any open source material about what littoral/near seas ASW SOP is for most navies, so it is merely my own vision for its conops. Specifically, I was thinking about the 056As operating in groups and fielding their TAS and VDS as a sort of mobile multi-static sonar system.

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I haven't ever heard of either TAS or VDS requiring or even just benefiting from multiple transmitters or receivers. If that were the case you would definitely see CSGs operating multiple ASW units at the same time. But this is clearly not the case. Most of the time you don't even have two ASW units operating at the same time in both screens, just one in the outer screen zigzagging around. Based on the detection ranges of these sensors in the few hundreds of km, multiple ships in a close proximity of ~20km would be a less than fully efficient use of these sensors, especially if the goal were for mutual protection, which these ships would be essentially incapable of providing for each other. My conception of these types of littoral patrol vessels is that they are lone wolves, intended to encounter and deal with threats that they can handle on their own. If the threat level is such that they need to operate in packs, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Bltizo said:

I think we may have differing perceptions of what "056A subset" means -- I see 056As ASW role as one where it is inherently defined and limited by its size, in terms of endurance, lack of hangar, lack of capable onboard ASW weapons like ASROC as well as lack of more capable air defence weapons... but I also think those omissions are all fine, because 056A is meant to be more of a cheaper, lower endurance, ship that operates in conjunction with a number of other assets.

This trimaran OTOH is a ship that displaces at least 1000 tons greater than an 056A and can perform the ASW role in a much more enduring and comprehensive way like a true frigate (including ASW helicopters and potentially VL ASROC type missiles), while also potentially having the capability to defend itself and nearby vessels from medium intensity air attacks if they are encountered. So through sheer size, I see such a ship as a complement rather than a replacement for the 056As ASW mission, as both occupy different size and capability profiles.

But I do agree, if the Navy does buy into this trimaran and if it is oriented towards ASW, then it would represent another example of the Navy seeking to advance its overall ASW capabilities.

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At least 1000 tons is a stretch given the numbers already quoted. In any case I see the 056A as what the 056 always should have been or as a stopgap for this new kind of ship. In other words the 056A is not really an adequate ASW ship in its own right, but seen as a GP patrol vessel with some ASW detection capability, it's not so bad. In either case the 056A as both a ship and a subclass is not a perfect design IMO.

Iron Man said:

I think this ship is unlikely to be the light end of PLAN's blue water mix, if that is what you are talking about. It is simply too small to have a meaningful role in a CSG; in this respect it would be similar to the LCS 2 Independence class trimaran, also not intended as a blue water escort. It would be a liability and would not be able to protect itself very well from air threats, especially compared to a 054A. You would have to ask yourself why would the PLAN rather have this ship in a CSG instead of a 054A? My own speculation for a future blue water mix is a 5,000-5,500 ton "054B" (ASW, local air defense), 8,000-9,000 ton "052E" (fleet air defense, ASuW), and a 12-13,000 ton 055 (fleet air defense, AAW C&C, ASuW, land attack, ?BMD defense).

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I think he is suggesting this ship could be the "near seas" patrol/ASW/general purpose combat ship of the Chinese Navy, in the same way that the 056/A is today, not that this ship would be deployed on blue water missions of any meaningful sort.

The APAR may work, but again, it entirely depends on what is that VLS and what is inside that VLS that would or would not justify an AESA over a standard radar set IMO. An AESA just to guide 16 MRSAMs seems to be entirely an overkill, especially if the primary mission of this ship is going to be ASW.

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Yes, I mean for all we know it can be a multi face MFR AESA or a single face fast rotating MFR AESA, and it would depend on the VLS as well... as I said, all speculative, but speculation is the name of the game here.

I haven't ever heard of either TAS or VDS requiring or even just benefiting from multiple transmitters or receivers. If that were the case you would definitely see CSGs operating multiple ASW units at the same time. But this is clearly not the case. Most of the time you don't even have two ASW units operating at the same time in both screens, just one in the outer screen zigzagging around. Based on the detection ranges of these sensors in the few hundreds of km, multiple ships in a close proximity of ~20km would be a less than fully efficient use of these sensors, especially if the goal were for mutual protection, which these ships would be essentially incapable of providing for each other. My conception of these types of littoral patrol vessels is that they are lone wolves, intended to encounter and deal with threats that they can handle on their own. If the threat level is such that they need to operate in packs, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

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The use of multi-static sonars are definitely a fairly recent area of study I think. Whether they are practically applicable on surface combatants operating together is not something that we know of, but that's the reason for this speculation.

I'd also argue that the sort of ASW environment that a CSG's ASW escort vs the kind of ASW environment that 056/As will operate in is quite different. One being much more in the open ocean, the other in the littorals and near seas. Whether that would have any influence on the operating proximity of friendly ASW vessels is something I do not know about but I think is a factor to consider before superimposing the norms of CSG ASW to littoral/near seas ASW, such as effecting detection ranges, accuracy of sonar etc.

At least 1000 tons is a stretch given the numbers already quoted. In any case I see the 056A as what the 056 always should have been or as a stopgap for this new kind of ship. In other words the 056A is not really an adequate ASW ship in its own right, but seen as a GP patrol vessel with some ASW detection capability, it's not so bad. In either case the 056A as both a ship and a subclass is not a perfect design IMO.

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Isn't 056/As full displacement commonly cited at about 1400 tons? Considering we do not know whether the trimaran's displacement figure is standard or full, I think it's pretty reasonable to use "at least"... and when we look at the dimensions of the trimaran frigate and compare it to say the dimensions of Independence class LCS and its full displacement, I think "at least" is quite reasonable.

And I see what you mean about 056A. I suppose that is where we differ a little -- I agree it's far from the optimal ASW platform you'd like for littoral/near seas ASW operations, but I also think simply having a large number of the ships equipped with capable TAS, VDS and datalinks to operate in conjunction with other more capable ASW ships, helicopters and land based ASW MPAs allows the Navy to monitor and survey not only a greater volume of water, but also potentially a more capable way (if 056As can be linked up together in a multistatic sonar sort of mode).

Bltizo said:

I think he is suggesting this ship could be the "near seas" patrol/ASW/general purpose combat ship of the Chinese Navy, in the same way that the 056/A is today, not that this ship would be deployed on blue water missions of any meaningful sort.

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He didn't say anything about any of that. He said "light", "medium", and "heavy". Especially in the context of the current light 054A, medium 052D, and imminent heavy 055 (all blue water ships), it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that the trimaran, a 6kt new FFG, and the 055 is being fronted as the new lo/med/hi blue water mix.

Bltizo said:

Yes, I mean for all we know it can be a multi face MFR AESA or a single face fast rotating MFR AESA, and it would depend on the VLS as well... as I said, all speculative, but speculation is the name of the game here.

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Speculating a single-faced rapidly rotating MFR (where did that come from?) is quite a bit of a stretch as far as speculation goes, since I don't know of any other example in any other navy. I think a far more reasonable speculation is based on what's already present on the model, i.e. no MFR and standard FCR; in fact I see an object that is FCR-sized and in the ideal location for it (at the base of the mast on the rooftop level); presumably another one exists on the port side as well. A rotating MFR designed to be used for FCR must be able to cover all arcs; such an MFR must absolutely be on the top-most part of the main mast, and that area already seems to be taken by some kind of antenna structure.

Bltizo said:

The use of multi-static sonars are definitely a fairly recent area of study I think. Whether they are practically applicable on surface combatants operating together is not something that we know of, but that's the reason for this speculation.

I'd also argue that the sort of ASW environment that a CSG's ASW escort vs the kind of ASW environment that 056/As will operate in is quite different. One being much more in the open ocean, the other in the littorals and near seas. Whether that would have any influence on the operating proximity of friendly ASW vessels is something I do not know about but I think is a factor to consider before superimposing the norms of CSG ASW to littoral/near seas ASW, such as effecting detection ranges, accuracy of sonar etc.

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No doubt the accuracy of sonar and detection ranges will be reduced in the littorals. Whether that would require several detectors to be grouped within 20km of each other is another matter, however. Also, remember that CSGs most often have only one detector operating at a time. It used to be an OHP frigate operating as part of the CSG, but nowadays it will be a Burke towing the line. Incidentally, while I have heard of multiphasic sonar, I haven't heard of their employment as part of some kind of network of shipborne sensors. It's apparently already hard enough to get it to work in a field of passive static sensors. Getting it to work for a sensor field where the sensors are both moving WRT to each other and the target and also frequently changing aspects seems even harder to me; I'm not sure it's even being attempted. I doubt the designers of the 056/A even envisioned something like a mobile ASW sensor network. It's certainly not something that 056/As are doing now or in the near future. If the trimaran is to be a leader for a pack of 056/As then logically one would think shipborne multiphasic sonar networks are already at hand or will be ready within the next several years when the trimaran reaches the fleet in numbers. I doubt this timeline for such a questionable fledgling technology is the actual case.

Bltizo said:

Isn't 056/As full displacement commonly cited at about 1400 tons? Considering we do not know whether the trimaran's displacement figure is standard or full, I think it's pretty reasonable to use "at least"... and when we look at the dimensions of the trimaran frigate and compare it to say the dimensions of Independence class LCS and its full displacement, I think "at least" is quite reasonable.

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1,500, but whatever. Not a huge deal.

Bltizo said:

And I see what you mean about 056A. I suppose that is where we differ a little -- I agree it's far from the optimal ASW platform you'd like for littoral/near seas ASW operations, but I also think simply having a large number of the ships equipped with capable TAS, VDS and datalinks to operate in conjunction with other more capable ASW ships, helicopters and land based ASW MPAs allows the Navy to monitor and survey not only a greater volume of water, but also potentially a more capable way (if 056As can be linked up together in a multistatic sonar sort of mode).

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Don't get me wrong. I'm all for more detectors, whether it's in the form of the 056A, this trimaran, or whatever other detector they can throw in the water. I'm just not sold on the idea of a 056/A ASW wolfpack or on the idea of this trimaran as their leader.

Iron Man said:

He didn't say anything about any of that. He said "light", "medium", and "heavy". Especially in the context of the current light 054A, medium 052D, and imminent heavy 055 (all blue water ships), it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that the trimaran, a 6kt new FFG, and the 055 is being fronted as the new lo/med/hi blue water mix.

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Well, he wrote: "I see this vessel as succeeding 056 as China's "light" warship, with a future ~6000 ton frigate as the "medium" warship, and of course the 12-13,000 ton Type 055 as the "heavy"."

In other words, succeeding the 056 as the light warship in role... which is the "near seas" ASW/patrol/general combat role.

Speculating a single-faced rapidly rotating MFR (where did that come from?) is quite a bit of a stretch as far as speculation goes, since I don't know of any other example in any other navy. I think a far more reasonable speculation is based on what's already present on the model, i.e. no MFR and standard FCR; in fact I see an object that is FCR-sized and in the ideal location for it (at the base of the mast on the rooftop level); presumably another one exists on the port side as well. A rotating MFR designed to be used for FCR must be able to cover all arcs; such an MFR must absolutely be on the top-most part of the main mast, and that area already seems to be taken by some kind of antenna structure.

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Artisan radar (able to support likes of sea ceptor), smart-s are the examples I was more thinking about.

And let's not take the model's depiction to the letter -- we have indications that the Navy has interest but it may not necessarily be the exact model that they've shown, and it appears they haven't even settled on a design yet let alone sensors, weapons, combat system etc. That gives us a lot of justifiable leeway for speculation, including something minor like reworking the entire mast of the trimaran model they've shown with something else.

No doubt the accuracy of sonar and detection ranges will be reduced in the littorals. Whether that would require several detectors to be grouped within 20km of each other is another matter, however. Also, remember that CSGs most often have only one detector operating at a time. It used to be an OHP frigate operating as part of the CSG, but nowadays it will be a Burke towing the line. Incidentally, while I have heard of multiphasic sonar, I haven't heard of their employment as part of some kind of network of shipborne sensors. It's apparently already hard enough to get it to work in a field of passive static sensors. Getting it to work for a sensor field where the sensors are both moving WRT to each other and the target and also frequently changing aspects seems even harder to me; I'm not sure it's even being attempted. I doubt the designers of the 056/A even envisioned something like a mobile ASW sensor network. It's certainly not something that 056/As are doing now or in the near future. If the trimaran is to be a leader for a pack of 056/As then logically one would think shipborne multiphasic sonar networks are already at hand or will be ready within the next several years when the trimaran reaches the fleet in numbers. I doubt this timeline for such a questionable fledgling technology is the actual case.

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Sure, well my underlying point is that I think there's sufficient cause to consider whether 056/As may operate in the form of a taskgroup for ASW missions in the parameters the Navy would want, partly due to potential advances (multi sensor sonar, developments in datalinking etc) and partly due to the littoral/near seas effects of ASW, and partly due to the cycle of what Chinese near seas ASW during wartime may look like.

1,500, but whatever. Not a huge deal.

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Yeah, this is a minor point overall.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for more detectors, whether it's in the form of the 056A, this trimaran, or whatever other detector they can throw in the water. I'm just not sold on the idea of a 056/A ASW wolfpack or on the idea of this trimaran as their leader.

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I suppose one reason I think that 056/As may do well as a task force with a leader is because I see them more as mobile, semi-well armed ASW sensor nodes, and not each ship as a complete ASW package itself, and thus I think a cost effective way to make efficient use of them is to operate in conjunction with each other but also to have a more well armed, more well equipped "overwatch" ship capable of providing ASW assets (helicopters, namely) and conventional defensive capabilities (area air defence) for each cluster of these mobile sensor nodes.

Blitzo has the correct interpretation of my suggested force structure, i.e. I anticipate this vessel succeeding 056 (which to say succeeding it in production, the two types would of course serve alongside one another for the next ~20yrs), not 054. As a larger vessel this new type -- which for the sake of clarity within my own conceptual scheme I will label a corvette -- would certainly have better range, endurance and seakeeping qualities than 056, enabling it to operate further from shore, potentially displacing frigates from certain "near sea" duties and freeing them for more blue-water taskings, but certainly they would not themselves be "blue water combatants".

My conception of and for the Chinese Navy is of a general "light/medium/heavy" force structure that is carried across generations, reflecting the continuous nature of PLAN's commitments (in contrast to e.g. USA or UK which have very limited commitments close to home, resulting in discontinuous force structure). While this general structure is preserved, the capabilities/range/endurance within each respective category evolves over time according to national resources. The general trend is towards increasing displacement within each category, reflecting both Chinese-specific (i.e. economic growth, technological mastery) and global (i.e. the trend even amongst economically sedate nations for new ships to be larger than those they are replacing) inputs.

Light: 037/022 -> 056 -> Sino-LCS
Medium: 053 -> 054 -> 057
Heavy: 051 -> 052 -> 055

The above structure has several noteworthy implications that bear on other discussions: that I expect 052 production to come to an end rather than continue alongside 055, and that I do not expect a direct replacement for PLAN's remaining small (i.e. <1000 tons) combatants, niches like minesweepers excepted.

Since first arriving at this conceptual model, I have been gratified to observe first the high tempo of 055 construction, which augers against ongoing 052 construction, and now this latest news of a new ~2500-3000 ton design attached to PLAN.

At this point the greatest risks I see for my model are the projections for "up to 70" 056s -- where if this Sino-LCS is to come to fruition one would expect 056 production to come to an end sooner rather than later -- and the dearth of information regarding a future frigate. Of course even if there is a Type 054B that is a fairly modest evolution from the current 054A (i.e. <4500 tons), it could be a transitional type while waiting on a larger, clean-sheet design to emerge.

Alternatively, from a fixed displacement perspective, one could envision this new LCS type as directly replacing 053H1G and 053H3 vessels (total of nineteen currently in service) over the course of the 2020s, with such 054B/057s as are produced seen as pure "expansion".

Okay The Model

USN Independence Class LCS/FF In current service.

existing PLAN Trimaran.
I chose these images intentionally for similar angles.

Bltizo said:

Artisan radar (able to support likes of sea ceptor), smart-s are the examples I was more thinking about.

And let's not take the model's depiction to the letter -- we have indications that the Navy has interest but it may not necessarily be the exact model that they've shown, and it appears they haven't even settled on a design yet let alone sensors, weapons, combat system etc. That gives us a lot of justifiable leeway for speculation, including something minor like reworking the entire mast of the trimaran model they've shown with something else.

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Even leaving the mast details of this model aside, a SMART-S type of radar would require an additional set of FCRs operating in a higher frequency band and would thus be part of a conventional radar set. A single MFR like APAR that could take care of search, tracking and terminal guidance would have to at least be C-band or higher, the point being that a single rapidly rotating panel tasked with this kind of role does not seem to exist.

Bltizo said:

Sure, well my underlying point is that I think there's sufficient cause to consider whether 056/As may operate in the form of a taskgroup for ASW missions in the parameters the Navy would want, partly due to potential advances (multi sensor sonar, developments in datalinking etc) and partly due to the littoral/near seas effects of ASW, and partly due to the cycle of what Chinese near seas ASW during wartime may look like.

I suppose one reason I think that 056/As may do well as a task force with a leader is because I see them more as mobile, semi-well armed ASW sensor nodes, and not each ship as a complete ASW package itself, and thus I think a cost effective way to make efficient use of them is to operate in conjunction with each other but also to have a more well armed, more well equipped "overwatch" ship capable of providing ASW assets (helicopters, namely) and conventional defensive capabilities (area air defence) for each cluster of these mobile sensor nodes.

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There are too many tenuous "what ifs" with a 056/A task group idea IMO. The mobile multistatic sensor network idea is not going to happen anytime soon (if ever). The shared group defense idea does not reflect the 056A's actual area-defense capabilities (essentially non-existent). The need for more and denser sensor coverage in the littorals is possibly a valid point, though never of us seem to have the knowledge to know if this is actually the case.

The idea of the trimaran being the " task group AAW protector" does not seem to be reflected in the current model and would require a series of several key speculations to happen with the production model, especially that the production VLS is the universal VLS with a quad-packed missile (and also that these task group ships will operate in close proximity to each other). In which case why design an entirely new class of vessel when you can just build another 054A, saving yourself the expense of R&D and utilizing a proven platform with already established logistics and training support? That's easily what I would do if I wanted to protect a 056A task group (assuming such task groups will even exist). After all, 054A production lines are still open for business.

No, I think there is something the PLAN wants from this trimaran that is unrelated to the 056/A series, and that is pure ASW. And as long as we are speculating, it wouldn't actually even surprise me if those VLS modules turn out to be the HHQ-16 type and end up packing 16 ASW missiles instead of air defense missiles, with the semi-730s being replaced by a single HHQ-10 launcher. VDS/TAS, 16 ASW missiles, and 2 organic ASW helicopters would make this ship a more potent ASW vessel than even the OHP, and in a smaller hull. With its additional antishipping armament and CIWS/SRSAM, it would actually far exceed the OHP's capabilities in general.

Iron Man said:

Even leaving the mast details of this model aside, a SMART-S type of radar would require an additional set of FCRs operating in a higher frequency band and would thus be part of a conventional radar set. A single MFR like APAR that could take care of search, tracking and terminal guidance would have to at least be C-band or higher, the point being that a single rapidly rotating panel tasked with this kind of role does not seem to exist.

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Depends on the radar, I think Artisan is capable of providing fire control to sea ceptor without additional fire control radars (sea ceptor of course is active homing).

There are too many tenuous "what ifs" with a 056/A task group idea IMO. The mobile multistatic sensor network idea is not going to happen anytime soon (if ever). The shared group defense idea does not reflect the 056A's actual area-defense capabilities (essentially non-existent). The need for more and denser sensor coverage in the littorals is possibly a valid point, though never of us seem to have the knowledge to know if this is actually the case.

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Yes, the "what ifs" is something I've openly acknowledged as speculation, which is the point.
And when I talk about "shared group defense" I'm not talking about 056As operating to provide shared group defense against air attacks, but more for mutual support against either surface or even subsurface threats. For area air defense, there is quite a hole to be filled and is why I think there could be a role for a ship to provide AAW.

The idea of the trimaran being the " task group AAW protector" does not seem to be reflected in the current model and would require a series of several key speculations to happen with the production model, especially that the production VLS is the universal VLS with a quad-packed missile (and also that these task group ships will operate in close proximity to each other). In which case why design an entirely new class of vessel when you can just build another 054A, saving yourself the expense of R&D and utilizing a proven platform with already established logistics and training support? That's easily what I would do if I wanted to protect a 056A task group (assuming such task groups will even exist). After all, 054A production lines are still open for business.

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None of this discussion from my end is reflected in the configuration of the current model -- it is all directed towards speculating what a "PLAN version" may look like.

No, I think there is something the PLAN wants from this trimaran that is unrelated to the 056/A series, and that is pure ASW. And as long as we are speculating, it wouldn't actually even surprise me if those VLS modules turn out to be the HHQ-16 type and end up packing 16 ASW missiles instead of air defense missiles, with the semi-730s being replaced by a single HHQ-10 launcher. VDS/TAS, 16 ASW missiles, and 2 organic ASW helicopters would make this ship a more potent ASW vessel than even the OHP, and in a smaller hull. With its additional antishipping armament and CIWS/SRSAM, it would actually far exceed the OHP's capabilities in general.

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Sure, that could also be one way that the ship could turn out.