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joshuatree

Captain
I would have to see a very credible article indicating that the US Navy is planning, unannounced and uninvited, and where it is not a part of a recognized sea lane, to violate the 12 mile limit before I would believe this.

In addition, the word "considering," makes it pretty clear to me at least, that no such plan exists.

If the US is truly considering this, it would be a huge escalation and makes the US no better than the claimants in the ongoing dispute. No matter how much the US may dislike what China is doing in the SCS, other claimants are doing the same. To consider a potential provocation based on an "international right" means you shouldn't be singling out just one claimant. If the US starts sailing/flying unannounced and uninvited to every claimant feature that it believes technically does not have a 12 nm zone, then maybe this destabilizing move can be pulled off. That means you start buzzing the Vietnamese and the Filipinos too. But if it's just only singling out China, this has bad news written all over it. It really would give impetus to China establishing a SCS ADIZ and it would actually make sense when you have a potent force just randomly showing up at your doorstep.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If the US is truly considering this, it would be a huge escalation and makes the US no better than the claimants in the ongoing dispute. No matter how much the US may dislike what China is doing in the SCS, other claimants are doing the same. To consider a potential provocation based on an "international right" means you shouldn't be singling out just one claimant. If the US starts sailing/flying unannounced and uninvited to every claimant feature that it believes technically does not have a 12 nm zone, then maybe this destabilizing move can be pulled off. That means you start buzzing the Vietnamese and the Filipinos too. But if it's just only singling out China, this has bad news written all over it. It really would give impetus to China establishing a SCS ADIZ and it would actually make sense when you have a potent force just randomly showing up at your doorstep.

It's worth noting the US is only considering this for particular reclaimed islands which they do not consider as islands.

I'm not sure how many other claimants have similar cases to what the US has issue with regarding China.
 

joshuatree

Captain
It's worth noting the US is only considering this for particular reclaimed islands which they do not consider as islands.

I'm not sure how many other claimants have similar cases to what the US has issue with regarding China.

Cornwallis South Reef appears to be similar.
 

Franklin

Captain
@Jeff, I'm on my phone ATM but there are news links for what I mentioned

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If this happens and as long as there are no collisions this will only result in a war of words between Washington and Beijing. But it will send a chill through US China relations.

For China to set up a ADIZ in the SCS will be a bad idea. This move from the US is aimed at provoking China to act in this way to then turn around and accuse China of violating international law, and being agressive or such a like. The best way for China to respond to this is to protest diplomatically. But that is IF this happens. Its not certain yet.
 
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It's worth noting the US is only considering this for particular reclaimed islands which they do not consider as islands.

I'm not sure how many other claimants have similar cases to what the US has issue with regarding China.

Apparently the US challenges a slew of maritime territorial claims, ironically including some of the other SCS claimants, perhaps appropriately this is without the US being a party to UNCLOS.

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Industries | Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:04pm EDT
UPDATE 1-U.S. military challenged maritime claims of 19 countries in 2014

By David Alexander

(Reuters) - The U.S. military conducted freedom of navigation operations last year challenging maritime claims by 19 countries, from China to Argentina, asserting U.S. transit rights in defiance of efforts to impose restrictions, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

It was the largest number of countries challenged in more than a decade, establishing the program's return to levels from before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, when U.S. forces had to curtail operations because of other priorities, officials said.

The rise in operations was due in part to an increased focus on Latin America, where the U.S. military challenged the claims of half a dozen countries, including Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela, according to the Pentagon's annual Freedom of Navigation Report for 2014.

The military has regularly conducted operations disputing some of China's maritime claims in recent years and did so again in 2014. A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said none of those claims were related to Beijing's dredging to create islands out of reefs in the South China Sea.

The official said China has not attempted to assert maritime claims around those newly created islands and would not be able to do so under international law.

"Under international law an island is a naturally formed feature, and it specifically says in international law that an artificial island is not entitled to a territorial sea," the official said. Any effort to create a maritime zone around those former reefs would be "a legal impossibility," he said.

The United States carries out freedom of navigation operations by sending Navy ships and military aircraft into maritime areas that nearby countries have tried to restrict in some way. The operations aim to show that the international community has not accepted the restrictions.

Iran and the Philippines have been the most frequently challenged countries over the years, mainly because they sit astride heavily traveled sea lanes whose use they have tried to limit or govern.

Tehran has tried to restrict passage through the Strait of Hormuz to signatories of the Law of the Sea Convention, which the United States has not endorsed. Manila has designated the Sulu Sea and other areas as archipelagic waters over which it has complete sovereignty, a claim Washington disputes.

Freedom of navigation operations, which began in 1979, are coordinated by the State and Defense departments and are meant to be consistent with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, even though Washington has not adopted it. (Reporting by David Alexander; editing by Gunna Dickson and Leslie Adler)

Link to the Freedom of Navigation report via USNI News:
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Ultra

Junior Member
If this happens and as long as there are no collisions this will only result in a war of words between Washington and Beijing. But it will send a chill through US China relations.

For China to set up a ADIZ in the SCS will be a bad idea. This move from the US is aimed at provoking China to act in this way to then turn around and accuse China of violating international law, and being agressive or such a like. The best way for China to respond to this is to protest diplomatically. But that is IF this happens. Its not certain yet.



I think Bltizo has it right :

The chances of an actual firefight resulting from any US ships or aircraft entering what China claims as its airspace and maritime limit is very low, next to nonexistant. Remember, even if China doesn't actually shoot down US ships and aircraft that do enter what China claims as its territorial limits, the US can't exactly stop China from continuing to reclaim those islands. So while the US can challenge China's territorial limits and lines, they can't stop China's continuing reclamation and development efforts without using physical force of some degree.


Basically while the USN can harass the PLAN in those area on high sea, USN cannot land on these islands and stop the construction. That would be a diplomatic disaster and a military crisis.
What the USN can hope for is to incite the claimants like Philippine to use physical force to retake the island and come to "help" Philippine once China counter-attack. USN can even blockade the sea lanes or harass the force that is trying to retake the island. They did this strategy already in Libya - by not directly attacking Gaddafi by enforcing the no-fly zone effectively eliminated Gaddafi's biggest asset - his airforce and let the rebel ground force do all the work.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys, despite these press announcements and considerations, the Rules of Behavior at SD remain the same.

DO NOT beat war drums and speak of projected (and in some cases preposterous) scenarios where this type of thing leads to war with specific countries (in this case the US and CHINA). Those posts will be deleted and the users will be warned.

In this case, Ultra, you are receiving a warning. The US would NOT divert commercial aircraft over potential conflict areas to either prompt or gauge a PRC military reaction, or as a cover for US military actions.

It's easy to get emotional and respond emotionally...but at SD we are not going to allow that, or any of the language that generally is associated with it. It will just lead to arguments, name calling, flame bait, and ultimate suspensions, closures and bannings.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION
 
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Ultra

Junior Member
Probably the best pic of 571 I have seen:

ffg571-jpg.11131



Hmmm, this has always puzzled me - I have seen a few ships (particularly indian and chinese) ships with this - the the hull has this "wrinkle" or "ripple effect" - can someone enlighten me as to why this happen? It makes the ship look like its made of paper meshes! I have never seen this on the western ships.
 
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